Post Mortem: Seahawks v Cardinals

SeattleAddict
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Re: Post Mortem: Seahawks v Cardinals

Post by SeattleAddict » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:32 pm

yeah, the top picks are consistently reaches - Penny, LJ, even Frank Clark. That's why I am always happy when they trade down. But as a WHOLE, they have gotten plenty of talent from the draft. The draft isn't just round 1.

Plus, those picks were #27, 29, and 63 and are all still in the NFL. I would bet about 40% of #1 picks during that time were out of the league, and probably another 20-30% kinda suck.

Michael K.
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Re: Post Mortem: Seahawks v Cardinals

Post by Michael K. » Tue Nov 24, 2020 5:42 pm

Yes, but they are missing on big time talent in the first round. No one is saying they don't strike Gold later, but imagine if we had taken guys like Armstead or Keenan Allen instead of C Mike? That wasn't even first round, that was second! How about getting TJ Watt? What about Nick Chubb? Like I said, I posted a TON of the Pro Bowlers they passed on with the picks they actually took. We like to make excuses about where they picked, but it doesn't change the fact that they have left meat on the bone. CBs, LBs, and Rush Ends. All positions we have drafted or been in search of.

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Donn Beach
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Re: Post Mortem: Seahawks v Cardinals

Post by Donn Beach » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:06 pm

we go around and around about this...not to defend it but for me i feel i see what they are up to, JS has responded to it. They draft to the team, JS looks for players to fit the profile of what Pete wants to develop. Its not about what someone else feels is the best athlete at the point they draft, its about how they fit the team. Yeah, Carpenter was a reach, Irvin, Ifdedi, all reaches, but Pete did turn them into starters, I am willing to bet Brooks ends up a starter. Should they do it another way, shoot for higher ceiling talent in the first round? Sure, okay, just think it be a hard argument to win with JSPC being they are both the winningest coach and GM in the franchises history

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Re: Post Mortem: Seahawks v Cardinals

Post by Michael K. » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:37 pm

Donn Beach wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:06 pm
we go around and around about this...not to defend it but for me i feel i see what they are up to, JS has responded to it. They draft to the team, JS looks for players to fit the profile of what Pete wants to develop. Its not about what someone else feels is the best athlete at the point they draft, its about how they fit the team. Yeah, Carpenter was a reach, Irvin, Ifdedi, all reaches, but Pete did turn them into starters, I am willing to bet Brooks ends up a starter. Should they do it another way, shoot for higher ceiling talent in the first round? Sure, okay, just think it be a hard argument to win with JSPC being they are both the winningest coach and GM in the franchises history
So, they want these guys so they reach for them, it doesn't work out, yet they continue to do it again, and the rationale is because those are the guys they want? No one is saying they aren't the guys they want, people are saying they should probably rethink the guys they target on day one.

They really wanted Penny, something about him they liked. So, they passed on Chubb, who most thought was the better back. They were wrong. That is just one example, and a good one because we are talking about two guys that play the exact same position.

JS can respond to it all he wants, but it doesn't change the fact that they reaches they have made have been bad ones. Not only should Ifedi not have been a starter, he CERTAINLY shouldn't have been playing Tackle. You named three guys, those aren't the only three early day draft picks they have made since Earl. Most of them have been average at best, and they all were taken ahead of projection and there was talent left.

Missing out on Carpenter, Irvin or Ifedi wouldn't have killed them. Let's not pretend there wasn't talent behind those guys! And again, I will hammer on it, but the C Mike pick was flat out stupid! Yes, they are drafting guys they like. The problem is, they like the wrong guys. They fall in love with a guy, so they take him twenty spots too high because he won't be left the next time they pick. Well, there was talent available that actually deserved to be taken at that spot, and paid the salary that spot demands.

You are constantly hammering on that. Stop it. No one says that JS and PC are taking guys they don't want, they are wanting to know why they want them!?

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Sibelius Hindemith
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Re: Post Mortem: Seahawks v Cardinals

Post by Sibelius Hindemith » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:24 pm

Just check out the career values of the players they have drafted from 2013 on. It isn't hard to see that most of those drafts were below average to terrible.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... /draft.htm

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Donn Beach
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Re: Post Mortem: Seahawks v Cardinals

Post by Donn Beach » Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:28 pm

over the last five seasons the Hawks have had the tenth best drafts

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat- ... -2010-2019

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Sibelius Hindemith
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Re: Post Mortem: Seahawks v Cardinals

Post by Sibelius Hindemith » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:55 pm

It's way too early to judge the last two, but here's my thoughts.

2017 - McATV-boy was a wasted pick. Griffin is an average starting corner, Pocic has been a zero until this year and is a below average starting center though likely to improve. Hill is a back-up safety, Moore has stuck as a reserve WR and Carson, of course, is an elite RB.

2018 - the top 3 picks (Penny, Green, Dissly) have been injured and missed at least half their potential starts. Tre Flowers has been awful. Dickson is great but he's a punter. Jones and Martin are back-ups. So the three starting-caliber position players that they drafted have contributed very little. There has to be a penalty for that.

2016 - Ifedi has started a lot of games and been mostly terrible. Reed had one productive season probably because Frank Clark was drawing double teams. Prosise one big play and a multitude of little injuries. Vannett career back-up. Jefferson was serviceable as a 3 tech but nothing special. Alex Collins? Joey Hunt? Blah!

2019 - Collier total bust. Blair who knows. DK big hit!!! Then some back-ups in Barton, Haynes, Amadi, and Homer.

2020 - Brooks hasn't been too good so far but playing out of position probably. Taylor who knows. Lewis looks like a quality guard who may have some Pro-Bowls in his future. Robinson and Swain look like guys that can stick around as back-ups for a while. Dallas hasn't looked too good. Parkinson another mystery.

So two elite players in DK and Carson, quality players in Lewis and Clark, a really good punter, and a bunch of unknowns (either rookies or been injured).

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Re: Post Mortem: Seahawks v Cardinals

Post by SeattleAddict » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:26 pm

Donn Beach wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:28 pm
over the last five seasons the Hawks have had the tenth best drafts

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat- ... -2010-2019
best factual breakdown I've seen. The Seahawks are actually #1 over 10 years, thanks to the Russell Wilson/Bobby Wagner mega haul. And if you say "oh yeah, well what if you took them out?" I get to say "oh yeah, well what if Malik McDowell would've been an All-Pro?"

JS' first picks always leave me screaming at the TV saying "WHO!!???" or "WHY DRAFT A RB/MLB???!!" but we all seem to agree on that. Oh the WHOLE though, they've done a good to great job on the draft.

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Re: Post Mortem: Seahawks v Cardinals

Post by Michael K. » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:48 pm

Donn Beach wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 9:28 pm
over the last five seasons the Hawks have had the tenth best drafts

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat- ... -2010-2019
Once again, how much better would they be if they didn't punt every first round pick?

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Sibelius Hindemith
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Re: Post Mortem: Seahawks v Cardinals

Post by Sibelius Hindemith » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:38 am

SeattleAddict wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:26 pm
best factual breakdown I've seen. The Seahawks are actually #1 over 10 years, thanks to the Russell Wilson/Bobby Wagner mega haul. And if you say "oh yeah, well what if you took them out?" I get to say "oh yeah, well what if Malik McDowell would've been an All-Pro?"
Best over 10 years according to whom? They had 2 very good and one great draft followed by 7 mediocre to bad drafts. See a trend there? Most enquiring minds would ask wtf happened?
SeattleAddict wrote:
Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:26 pm
JS' first picks always leave me screaming at the TV saying "WHO!!???" or "WHY DRAFT A RB/MLB???!!" but we all seem to agree on that. Oh the WHOLE though, they've done a good to great job on the draft.
No. It seems clear that the scouting took a hit after 2012. Scott McCloughan departed in 2013. Coincidence?

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