Clowney: At What Price?

Clowney: At What Cost: Clowney?

$15/16 Mill
0
No votes
$17/18 Mill
2
18%
$19/20 Mill
2
18%
$20/21 Mill
1
9%
$22/23 Mill
5
45%
Over $23 Mill
1
9%
 
Total votes: 11

Michael K.
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Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Clowney: At What Price?

Post by Michael K. » Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:34 pm

Very good point. I should mention that he does a great job of structuring it advantageously under the cap. But, moving $ around to fit the cap doesn't help you keep a player.

auroraave
Posts: 192
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Location: Beverly Hills, Ca.

Re: Clowney: At What Price?

Post by auroraave » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:15 pm

Michael K. wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:34 pm
Very good point. I should mention that he does a great job of structuring it advantageously under the cap. But, moving $ around to fit the cap doesn't help you keep a player.
Isn't this exactly what his job is? because he has done a good job, Seattle is in a position to sign any free agent they want to - including Clowney. Have you ever negotiated with the Tom Condon's of the world? They're pretty goddam good at their job. You take umbrage to him literally doing his job, as if he's not doing good enough for you. Because he's not signing players below market value - when across the table from him is an agent who HAS TO GET THAT or the client walks. Didn't he fleece the Lions for the best player we have in the secondary? Didn't he fleece the Texans for a rental on Clowney that cost us two players that would not have even made our roster? You come across as having an ax to grind - and when pushed to explain why, you don't really have a good reason. His draft sucks, his deals suck. Yet we have one of the most enviable cap positions in the league. What specifically should he be doing better? What GM is outperforming him while consistently putting a playoff caliber team on the field and NEVER leveraging the future?

DanielVogelbach
Posts: 260
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:43 pm

Re: Clowney: At What Price?

Post by DanielVogelbach » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:37 pm

Michael K. wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:34 pm
moving $ around to fit the cap doesn't help you keep a player.
Actually, it pretty much does exactly that. When you win games, you're going to lose some players you would like to keep. It's all about mitigating those and making the right decisions regarding who you reluctantly say goodbye to. I've always thought cap casualties were kind of sad for fans and sort of punished GMs for their success. It's funny how they've implemented the cap to try and force parity, and yet all it did was create a generation of cap masters like JS creating the new school dynasties like New England and Seattle. All this salary cap stuff and all the fan favorites like RS and ET getting ditched and yet still somehow Detroit still sucks ass.

Michael K.
Posts: 1509
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Clowney: At What Price?

Post by Michael K. » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:41 pm

auroraave wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:15 pm

Isn't this exactly what his job is? because he has done a good job, Seattle is in a position to sign any free agent they want to - including Clowney.


Yes, and that is what I've said. I just don't know how everyone thinks that because of John Schneider we will sign players. I have faith we will sign guys and not be too crippled by the cap, but this theory that players will sign here because of that is strange. All it takes is one dumb ass GM to over pay and we aren't getting him.
auroraave wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:15 pm
Have you ever negotiated with the Tom Condon's of the world? They're pretty goddam good at their job. You take umbrage to him literally doing his job, as if he's not doing good enough for you. Because he's not signing players below market value - when across the table from him is an agent who HAS TO GET THAT or the client walks. Didn't he fleece the Lions for the best player we have in the secondary? Didn't he fleece the Texans for a rental on Clowney that cost us two players that would not have even made our roster? You come across as having an ax to grind - and when pushed to explain why, you don't really have a good reason. His draft sucks, his deals suck. Yet we have one of the most enviable cap positions in the league. What specifically should he be doing better? What GM is outperforming him while consistently putting a playoff caliber team on the field and NEVER leveraging the future?
WTF are you talking about? An ax to grind? Fine, I will never point out again that a GM doesn't set the market, and that paying top dollar is what it takes to sign top FA...because that might hurt your feelings.

D-train
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Location: Kirkland

Re: Clowney: At What Price?

Post by D-train » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:46 pm

JS reminds me of PC in the sense that for the most part he has been great. They miss the playoffs one season and seemingly go into a rebuild but somehow make the playoffs the next year and the following year they make it again and win a playoff game. So seemingly on the upswing again with an excellent amount of cap space.

But he keeps having highly questionable first picks. I think that just adds to the frustration that these guys are great overall but keep having that annoying bad habit that they stubbornly refuse to address.
dt

Michael K.
Posts: 1509
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Clowney: At What Price?

Post by Michael K. » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:47 pm

DanielVogelbach wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:37 pm
Michael K. wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:34 pm
moving $ around to fit the cap doesn't help you keep a player.
Actually, it pretty much does exactly that. When you win games, you're going to lose some players you would like to keep. It's all about mitigating those and making the right decisions regarding who you reluctantly say goodbye to. I've always thought cap casualties were kind of sad for fans and sort of punished GMs for their success. It's funny how they've implemented the cap to try and force parity, and yet all it did was create a generation of cap masters like JS creating the new school dynasties like New England and Seattle. All this salary cap stuff and all the fan favorites like RS and ET getting ditched and yet still somehow Detroit still sucks ass.
I think we are talking about two separate things, and probably because what I typed and you quoted wasn't stated very well. Yes, manipulating the cap of course helps us keep players. What I should have cleared up is it isn't going to make keeping Clowney...as a FA. We can move the money how ever we want, Clowney is going to want to get paid. Because John has done a great job, we have cap room. But I don't know that he is going to be able to maneuver this deal in any way for us to pay Clowney less and keep him, that is what I meant.

No clue how this stirred the pot as much, so I guess I'll just leave it at this. JS is a great GM, especially when it comes to this stuff. Honestly I never thought for one second we could keep WIlson and Wagner and sign Brown and not cripple the salary cap. The Clowney trade was outstanding. JS has done a great job. BUT, because I have faith that he can work out a deal for Clowney that doesn't cripple it doesn't mean there is no way someone else will over pay for him and we lose him.

I pointed out the Highest in the Industry contracts we have signed as a way to point out you need to pay sometimes. Not sure why everyone got butt hurt over that, but oh well.

DanielVogelbach
Posts: 260
Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:43 pm

Re: Clowney: At What Price?

Post by DanielVogelbach » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:08 pm

I agree it's possible they could lose him if some other team puts out a massive bid. I'm sure if you did the research you could narrow it down to probably a small list of teams that might be in a position to make that move. Hawks aren't the only team working under a cap. Hopefully, they get him wrapped up early at fair market value.

Michael K.
Posts: 1509
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Clowney: At What Price?

Post by Michael K. » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:34 pm

DanielVogelbach wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:08 pm
I agree it's possible they could lose him if some other team puts out a massive bid. I'm sure if you did the research you could narrow it down to probably a small list of teams that might be in a position to make that move. Hawks aren't the only team working under a cap. Hopefully, they get him wrapped up early at fair market value.
I think the advantage we have is Clowney wants to play for a winner, and if John Clayton is to be believed, he wants to play in a 4 - 3. So, the list gets narrowed some and we stay on it.

auroraave
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 9:35 pm
Location: Beverly Hills, Ca.

Re: Clowney: At What Price?

Post by auroraave » Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:52 pm

Michael K. wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:41 pm
auroraave wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:15 pm

Isn't this exactly what his job is? because he has done a good job, Seattle is in a position to sign any free agent they want to - including Clowney.


Yes, and that is what I've said. I just don't know how everyone thinks that because of John Schneider we will sign players. I have faith we will sign guys and not be too crippled by the cap, but this theory that players will sign here because of that is strange. All it takes is one dumb ass GM to over pay and we aren't getting him.
auroraave wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:15 pm
Have you ever negotiated with the Tom Condon's of the world? They're pretty goddam good at their job. You take umbrage to him literally doing his job, as if he's not doing good enough for you. Because he's not signing players below market value - when across the table from him is an agent who HAS TO GET THAT or the client walks. Didn't he fleece the Lions for the best player we have in the secondary? Didn't he fleece the Texans for a rental on Clowney that cost us two players that would not have even made our roster? You come across as having an ax to grind - and when pushed to explain why, you don't really have a good reason. His draft sucks, his deals suck. Yet we have one of the most enviable cap positions in the league. What specifically should he be doing better? What GM is outperforming him while consistently putting a playoff caliber team on the field and NEVER leveraging the future?
WTF are you talking about? An ax to grind? Fine, I will never point out again that a GM doesn't set the market, and that paying top dollar is what it takes to sign top FA...because that might hurt your feelings.
This is seriously your response? For years you have ben lamenting ad nauseum about how bad Schneider is, the horror of taking Penny, the blasphemy of not taking Ramczyk, and now because he isn't UNDERPAYING players? An somehow MY feelings are hurt? lol! Okay.

Sorry dude, you're one of the good guys on here, but this dug-in stance you have been taking for years now that JC isn't all that simply doesn't add up. Instead if just acknowledging that, you make these grand exaggerations. If you had a strong position, you simply would not have to resort to that. I'm not going to go around in circles with you, It's a shame you won't answer any of the questions I have tossed your way - or explain specifically why he is so bad in your mind, when the evidence all leans into him being very good.

I am probably the least emotional poster on the forum - suggesting my feeling are hurt is silly. Your emotions seem to get the best of you, and so you try to turn it around on me. I get it. Psychology 101. All good, we're all fans here.

Michael K.
Posts: 1509
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 5:27 am

Re: Clowney: At What Price?

Post by Michael K. » Thu Jan 16, 2020 9:01 pm

auroraave wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 8:52 pm

This is seriously your response? For years you have ben lamenting ad nauseum about how bad Schneider is, the horror of taking Penny, the blasphemy of not taking Ramczyk, and now because he isn't UNDERPAYING players? An somehow MY feelings are hurt? lol! Okay.

Sorry dude, you're one of the good guys on here, but this dug-in stance you have been taking for years now that JC isn't all that simply doesn't add up. Instead if just acknowledging that, you make these grand exaggerations. If you had a strong position, you simply would not have to resort to that. I'm not going to go around in circles with you, It's a shame you won't answer any of the questions I have tossed your way - or explain specifically why he is so bad in your mind, when the evidence all leans into him being very good.

I am probably the emotional poster on the forum - suggesting my feeling are hurt is silly. Your emotions seem to get the best of you, and so you try to turn it around on me. I get it. Psychology 101. All good, we're all fans here.
There is not one thing I posted on this topic that has anything to do with what you are saying. Once again, JS will not set the market for Clowney. As I said with the other guys we gave top $ to, that does happen. But this belief that he will somehow sign here because JS is a magician is an odd one, and one I spoke about maybe a page ago. What you said above doesn't even fit this debate.

Now, was I upset about some of the early draft day picks? Sure, but no more upset about that than I was thrilled that he was able to sign Wag and Wilson and trade for Clowney. But, I already said that, you just refuse to read it.

Do you want to talk about this subject, or something I said in the past that upset you. Least emotional poster....OK. I seriously have no idea what half of what you said has anything to do besides the fact that your reading comprehension is horrible flawed. Where did I say anything that this response makes sense.

"This is seriously your response? For years you have ben lamenting ad nauseum about how bad Schneider is, the horror of taking Penny, the blasphemy of not taking Ramczyk, and now because he isn't UNDERPAYING players?"

Do you think he IS underpaying players? And you just named two fucking picks I have a problem with, besides C Mike and the ATV driver, name another? I question four picks in the many drafts we've had and that is me ad nauseum ripping Schneider. Yeah, that is a very unemotional reaction from you.

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