Thread Thief GT 9/15

[Captain 97]

I just disagree that "singles hitters" aren't important.

Both Justin Turner and Cal Raleigh would laugh at you if you asked them if they are as good as Ichiro in his prime this year.

2024 Raleigh is better than 2003 Ichiro. I'll take the guy with 66 runs scored and 93 RBI on a team with 617 runs over the guy with 111 Runs scored and 62 RBI on a team that scored 795 runs. Put 2003 Ichiro in this putrid 2024 lineup and he probably has about 90 runs and 50 RBI.

I'm making the claim that 2003 Ichiro is not a 112 OPS+ hitter in 2024.

I don't see Ichiro's stats dropping if you had him in his prime in 2024 which means he'd be at like a 130 OPS+ with those stats today.

Like you're just not going to convince me that Victor Robles is so much more talented than Ichiro with a bat in his hands.

That seems like an unverifiable opinion.
I don't think there is any reason to think that he would somehow be better equipped to deal with todays improved pitching any more than any other player.
A better argument would be that Ichiro's League adjusted numbers were depressed in the early 2000's due to steroid users inflating the league wide numbers.

[Seattle or Bust]

2024 Raleigh is better than 2003 Ichiro. I'll take the guy with 66 runs scored and 93 RBI on a team with 617 runs over the guy with 111 Runs scored and 62 RBI on a team that scored 795 runs. Put 2003 Ichiro in this putrid 2024 lineup and he probably has about 90 runs and 50 RBI.

I'm making the claim that 2003 Ichiro is not a 112 OPS+ hitter in 2024.

I don't see Ichiro's stats dropping if you had him in his prime in 2024 which means he'd be at like a 130 OPS+ with those stats today.

Like you're just not going to convince me that Victor Robles is so much more talented than Ichiro with a bat in his hands.

That seems like an unverifiable opinion.
I don't think there is any reason to think that he would somehow be better equipped to deal with todays improved pitching any more than any other player.
A better argument would be that Ichiro's League adjusted numbers were depressed in the early 2000's due to steroid users inflating the league wide numbers.

Sure... but its tough to differentiate between roids and talent. Certainly a contributing factor to what I'm saying.

Are you going to go out on a limb and say Luis Arraez hits .400 every year from 2001-2003? Is Aaron Judge prime Barry Bonds in those years?

Doubt it very much.

And it still goes without answering why OPS+ or wRC+ doesn't tell the whole story with Ichiro... his base-hitting ability + ability to run the bases was elite which was his role.

[Captain 97]

Arraez has hit .324 over the last 4 years. If it was 20 years earlier with the exact same skill set, I think he could have been of a .340 hitter like Ichiro was from 2001-2004. For overall production, nobody would ever touch roided up Barry naturally but I absolutely think Judge could have hit close to 70 HR playing back then.

[Captain 97]

And it still goes without answering why OPS+ or wRC+ doesn't tell the whole story with Ichiro... his base-hitting ability + ability to run the bases was elite which was his role.

The speed has some value but its not as valuable as hitting for power. Getting a single and stealing second doesn't drive in a runner from 1st base. Infield hits don't score hitters from second.

[Seattle or Bust]

And it still goes without answering why OPS+ or wRC+ doesn't tell the whole story with Ichiro... his base-hitting ability + ability to run the bases was elite which was his role.

The speed has some value but its not as valuable as hitting for power. Getting a single and stealing second doesn't drive in a runner from 1st base. Infield hits don't score hitters from second.

Great... but a team of 9 power hitters doesn't win you much IMO.

That's why rosters are made of players with diverse skill sets.

Ichiro was put in the no. 1 hole in an era where speed and ability to run the bags was a more valued asset. It was what he was asked to do. He was asked to table set. He designed his game around that.

[bpj]

Arraez has hit .324 over the last 4 years. If it was 20 years earlier with the exact same skill set, I think he could have been of a .340 hitter like Ichiro was from 2001-2004. For overall production, nobody would ever touch roided up Barry naturally but I absolutely think Judge could have hit close to 70 HR playing back then.

Agreed

[D-train]

Ichiro the leadoff hitter is ranked 588th in OBP along the likes of Carlos Guillen, Carlos Santana and Orlando Merced.

Screenshot 2024-09-17 3.37.19 PM.png (36.09 KiB) Viewed 136 times

[Captain 97]

Great... but a team of 9 power hitters doesn't win you much IMO.

That's why rosters are made of players with diverse skill sets.

Rosters are made of diverse skill sets because there simply aren't enough decent power hitters to fill out 30 rosters and It would be cost prohibitive to try and build a roster with 9 power hitters. I'd take a lineup with 9 Edgars over 9 Ichiros any day of the week.

[Walla Walla Dawg II]

Great... but a team of 9 power hitters doesn't win you much IMO.

That's why rosters are made of players with diverse skill sets.

Rosters are made of diverse skill sets because there simply aren't enough decent power hitters to fill out 30 rosters and It would be cost prohibitive to try and build a roster with 9 power hitters. I'd take a lineup with 9 Edgars over 9 Ichiros any day of the week.

I don't know if I would.
How many double plays did Edgar hit into verses Ichiro?

[bpj]

Great... but a team of 9 power hitters doesn't win you much IMO.

That's why rosters are made of players with diverse skill sets.

Rosters are made of diverse skill sets because there simply aren't enough decent power hitters to fill out 30 rosters and It would be cost prohibitive to try and build a roster with 9 power hitters. I'd take a lineup with 9 Edgars over 9 Ichiros any day of the week.

I don't know if I would.
How many double plays did Edgar hit into verses Ichiro?

Here the number of double plays they've grounded into, and how many extra base hits Ichiro and Edgar had-

Edgar across 8672 plate appearances:
GIDP: 190
xBH: 838

Ichiro across 10,734 plate appearances:
GIDP: 92
xBH: 575