Dilly is a Ranger?

[D-train]

Julio has 5.2 bWAR and 4.3 fWAR. I hate that there is a significant difference.

I think bWAR is more accurate. fWAR would show Kikuchi was a good pitcher as a Mariner and we all know that's BS.

Yeah I like fWAR only for position players. Fangraphs uses FIP for pitchers which completely excludes drawing weak contact because it only includes HRs, Ks and BBs.

[Donn Beach]

wait a minute...the six seasons of control is very important, and being able to negotiate an extension can be important. But I don't see it as some sort of game changer. It has become kind of the flavor du jour lately, the Braves seemingly the most aggressive. Dipoto promotes it but where has it been that successful an actual model? The Braves now have pretty much collapsed. The Red Sox bailed on their stab at it. Toronto is now on the board but its going to be some time before that can be deemed a success

I don't know what you mean by game changer, but it's the only reason small market teams can compete with Dodgers and Yankees in a league without a salary cap.

My point is that it's not just 6 years, because most young players will happily sign a small extension to avoid arbitration and lock up some millions. So, you typically can get them to sign an extension and now you're talking 8 years. The first 8 years of their career.

Some players won't sign the extension. I'm sure Scott Boras has some sort of insurance policy for them. But, he wants them on the open market ASAP to maximize total money. Most players and agents happily sign the extensions though, because it guarantees the player is set for life in case they get injured and can't play any more.

what are you basing that on? Large market teams can offer their young players the same type of contract can't they?

[Michael K.]

Buckner was pretty solid but I think he would have had a much shorter career if GMs had access to advanced stats back then. He put up -2.9 WAR his last 7 seasons.

Again, WAR. J Rod was in the 90s in OPS, Slugging and On Base %, maybe four or five weeks ago. I posted all of that, and yet guys told me that his WAR made him almost elite. So? Fuck WAR. If you can actually tell me that a guy with an On Base, Slugging, and OPS in the 90s in all of baseball, deserves a WAR that makes him almost elite, because he does some other things that create and save more runs then he costs them by being a shitty hitter? Than we have to disagree.

You guys love your nerdy stats. I like to watch guys that do shit on the field that helps there team win. Lacing up cleats and standing at SS or CF and having your WAR inflated is a joke. No chance they save as many runs as being 90th and hitting costs them.

You keep saying standing at Standing at SS or CF. Pretty sure both Julio and Dylan play great D. I do agree that bWAR does over value Defense to some extent but it is better than ignoring it.

Buckner had negative WAR his last 7 seasons primarily because he could not longer hit. Sub 700 OPS.

But am I wrong in saying all they have to do is have SS and CF written as their position and they get a WAR bump over a guy with the same numbers but plays a less values defensive position?

[Donn Beach]

Again, WAR. J Rod was in the 90s in OPS, Slugging and On Base %, maybe four or five weeks ago. I posted all of that, and yet guys told me that his WAR made him almost elite. So? Fuck WAR. If you can actually tell me that a guy with an On Base, Slugging, and OPS in the 90s in all of baseball, deserves a WAR that makes him almost elite, because he does some other things that create and save more runs then he costs them by being a shitty hitter? Than we have to disagree.

You guys love your nerdy stats. I like to watch guys that do shit on the field that helps there team win. Lacing up cleats and standing at SS or CF and having your WAR inflated is a joke. No chance they save as many runs as being 90th and hitting costs them.

You keep saying standing at Standing at SS or CF. Pretty sure both Julio and Dylan play great D. I do agree that bWAR does over value Defense to some extent but it is better than ignoring it.

Buckner had negative WAR his last 7 seasons primarily because he could not longer hit. Sub 700 OPS.

But am I wrong in saying all they have to do is have SS and CF written as their position and they get a WAR bump over a guy with the same numbers but plays a less values defensive position?

that's because SS is considered a more difficult position to play. An average SS is considered more valuable than an average first baseman because of his defensive contribution

[DanielVogelbach]

wait a minute...the six seasons of control is very important, and being able to negotiate an extension can be important. But I don't see it as some sort of game changer. It has become kind of the flavor du jour lately, the Braves seemingly the most aggressive. Dipoto promotes it but where has it been that successful an actual model? The Braves now have pretty much collapsed. The Red Sox bailed on their stab at it. Toronto is now on the board but its going to be some time before that can be deemed a success

I don't know what you mean by game changer, but it's the only reason small market teams can compete with Dodgers and Yankees in a league without a salary cap.

My point is that it's not just 6 years, because most young players will happily sign a small extension to avoid arbitration and lock up some millions. So, you typically can get them to sign an extension and now you're talking 8 years. The first 8 years of their career.

Some players won't sign the extension. I'm sure Scott Boras has some sort of insurance policy for them. But, he wants them on the open market ASAP to maximize total money. Most players and agents happily sign the extensions though, because it guarantees the player is set for life in case they get injured and can't play any more.

what are you basing that on? Large market teams can offer their young players the same type of contract can't they?

Of course large market teams can offer their young players extensions and keep them basically as long as they want. The point is that the rules allow for small market teams to compete with the large market teams. It's pretty obvious that without the club control and ability to negotiate exclusively with young players the small market teams would have zero chance in a free market system with zero salary cap. You would draft a rookie and then the next year they would be playing for the Dodgers.

The current rules also give teams the opportunity to ride waves. A small market team can't create a 10 year dynasty, but if they are in a situation where they're mediocre, then they can offload the veterans to stockpile the prospects and wait around and hope enough of the prospects come through to give them a window of contention.

The problem with the Mariners for so long is they never just blew the whole thing up. They kept signing some FA bats that weren't enough to put them over the top.

I don't know how much the draft position matters, but blowing it up usually ensures that you lose a ton of games and get the earliest picks in the draft, although I think they implemented a lottery system recently like NBA.

[DanielVogelbach]

Mixing in the offense with the defense for WAR is fine for like an MVP type discussion, but seems low value for roster building. You want to know independently if the guy can hit, get on base, hit for power versus what positions he can play and how well he can play those positions.

WAR is basically where we have all these great stats and we just jumble them all up into one.

[seattlefan-daBronx]

All I know is we groom players in this organization that do shit for us and then do something magically in October.

I watch playoff baseball on television and there is ALWAYS one former Mariner playing and contributing in some way.

i.e. Chris Taylor, Daniel Vogie, Carlos Santana, Mike Zunino, Encarnacion, James freakin Paxton, Cameron Maybin, Fernando Fn Rodney, Nelson Cruz never even touched the post season until he left Seattle for Christ sake!

Makes me sick. We are the AAAA club of the major leagues.

September calls ups better push some of these deadweights off the roster.

October ball better not include Garver, Castillo, or Sauce on it or I'm going crap a baby.

We don't need 5 starting pitchers to play the first round of baseball.

Bring up Taylor, Ford, Hancock for relief, hell I'd rather watch Mastroboni.

[DanielVogelbach]

Robbie Ray has a 2.38 ERA

[D-train]

Again, WAR. J Rod was in the 90s in OPS, Slugging and On Base %, maybe four or five weeks ago. I posted all of that, and yet guys told me that his WAR made him almost elite. So? Fuck WAR. If you can actually tell me that a guy with an On Base, Slugging, and OPS in the 90s in all of baseball, deserves a WAR that makes him almost elite, because he does some other things that create and save more runs then he costs them by being a shitty hitter? Than we have to disagree.

You guys love your nerdy stats. I like to watch guys that do shit on the field that helps there team win. Lacing up cleats and standing at SS or CF and having your WAR inflated is a joke. No chance they save as many runs as being 90th and hitting costs them.

You keep saying standing at Standing at SS or CF. Pretty sure both Julio and Dylan play great D. I do agree that bWAR does over value Defense to some extent but it is better than ignoring it.

Buckner had negative WAR his last 7 seasons primarily because he could not longer hit. Sub 700 OPS.

But am I wrong in saying all they have to do is have SS and CF written as their position and they get a WAR bump over a guy with the same numbers but plays a less values defensive position?

No you are correct. Just like QBs have more value and get paid more than Guards or Middle Line backers. Here is the positional adjustment table:

Screenshot 2025-08-29 160057.png (23.15 KiB) Viewed 275 times

[Michael K.]

Pay a SS mote if you want, this has nothing to with salary. I could not care less about saving some fat fucking billionaire money. Some dude gets stuck into the lineup at SS, and gets a WAR bump? Stupid stat.

Do you think Nelson Cruz deserved to lose 17.5 points a year? Utterly useless stat.