All time M's vs the other expansion teams

[Hanjag]

The rules: The players listed must have been drafted/signed with the club or traded for and broke out with new club. Example Randy Johnson was drafted by Expos but traded to M's where he broke out. Cano, Beltre are examples of those that the M's signed or traded for but previously broke out. I would probably accept a guy like Narvaez, or Cameron but even those guys kinda established themselves Pre-Mariner.

1961: Los Angeles Angels (later California Angels, then Anaheim Angels, then Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, now Los Angeles Angels once again); Washington Senators (now Texas Rangers)
1962: Houston Colt .45s (now Houston Astros); New York Mets
1969: Kansas City Royals; Montreal Expos (now Washington Nationals); San Diego Padres; Seattle Pilots (now Milwaukee Brewers)
1977: Seattle Mariners; Toronto Blue Jays
1993: Colorado Rockies; Florida Marlins (now Miami Marlins)
1998: Arizona Diamondbacks; Tampa Bay Devil Rays (now Tampa Bay Rays)

[Hanjag]

1st the M's, Rays, Expos-Nats, Rockies,Pilots- Brewers, and Senators-Rangers have not won WS but only the M's and Expos-Nats never even made an appearance.

[Hanjag]

player/ position peak OPS+/ERA+ WAR peak SB
SP 1-5 (40 WAR)
Randy Johnson peak 197ERA+ 10.7 WAR 5X CY
Felix peak 174 ERA+ 7.2 1XCY, #2CY(2)
Mark Langston peak 140 ERA+ 8.5 WAR #5,6 CY
Hisahi Iwakuma Peak 138 ERA+ 7.2 WAR cy #3
Mike Moore peak 142 ERA+ 6.4 WAR #2 CY
BP 6 best (20.3 BP WAR)
Closer Diaz peak 234 ERA+ 3.2 WAR
Swing Bill Swift ERA+ 203 4.4 WAR
SU JJ Putz 319 ERA+ 4 WAR
BP Enrique Romo 146 ERA+ 3.4 WAR
BP Jeff Nelson 220 ERA+ 2.9 WAR
BP Carson Smith 166 ERA+ 2.4 WAR

PLAYER Position peak OPS+, WAR, SB
1 Ichiro RF 130 9.2 56SB
2. ARod SS 176 10.4 46SB
3. Griffey CF 171 8.2 24SB
4. Edgar DH 185 7.0* 14SB
5. Kyle Seager 3B 133 6.9 13SB
6. Boone 2B 153 8.8 16SB
7 Alvin Davis 1B 156 6 5SB
8. Mitch Haniger LF 138 6.1 8SB
9. Omar Narvaez C 132 4* 0SB
(66.6 WAR starters plus 18.3 bench)
Bench OFDH Ibanez 132 4.5 peak,Danny Tartabull 171 OPS+ 4.4WAR Ken Phelps peak 170 OPS+, 2.6 WAR, Tino Martinez 1B 143 OPS+ 5.1 C pick of Dan Wilson, Kenji Jojima, Mike Zuniino 125 OPS+ 3.4WAR, Maybe Buhner 138OPS+ 3.5 WAR peak I am tempted to put in McKlemore of super utility but Omar Vizquel gets in instead peak 6 WAR 111OPS+ GG defense.

Any other suggestions?
Edits 1 MIke Moore over Freddy or Paxton
player/ position peak OPS+/ERA+ WAR peak SB
SP 1-5
Randy Johnson peak 197ERA+ 10.7 WAR 5X CY
Felix peak 174 ERA+ 7.2 1XCY, #2CY(2)
Mark Langston peak 140 ERA+ 8.5 WAR #5,6 cy
Freddy Garcia Peak 135 ERA+ 5.4 WAR cy #3,9
James Paxton peak 140 ERA+ 4.6 WAR
or
Mike Moore Peak 142 ERA+ 6.3 WAR CY #3 vote
Bill Swift Starter reliever CY vote #2 starter 138 ERA+ 4.5 WAR,year before part time starter 4.4 WAR tear before exclusive BP 3.7 WAR
BP 6 best
Closer Diaz peak 234 ERA+ 3.2 WAR
SU Kaz 169 ERA+ 1.3 WAR
SU JJ Putz 319 ERA+ 4 WAR
SU Mark Lowe 385 ERA+ 1.6 WAR
BP Mike Montgomery 174 ERA+ 2.2 WAR
BP Jeff Nelson 220 ERA + 2.9
Probably gotta sub in Bill Swift and a 4.4 WAR swing year or a 3.7 WAR pure BP
PLAYER Position peak OPS+, WAR, SB
1 Ichiro RF 130 9.2 56SB
2. ARod SS 176 10.4 46SB
3. Griffey CF 171 8.2 24SB
4. Edgar DH 185 7.0* 14SB
5. Kyle Seager 3B 133 6.9 13SB
6. Boone 2B 153 8.8 16SB
7 Alvin Davis 1B 156 6 5SB
8. Mitch Haniger LF 138 6.1 8SB
9. Omar Narvaez C 132 3* 0SB
Bench OFDH Ibanez 132 4.5 peak,Danny Tartabull 171 OPS+ 4.4WAR Ken Phelps peak 170 OPS+, 2.6 WAR, Tino Martinez 1B 143 OPS+ 5.1 C pick of Dan Wilson, Kenji Jojima, Mike Zuniino 125 OPS+ 3.4WAR, Maybe Buhner 138OPS+ 3.5 WAR peak I am tempted to put in McKlemore of super utility but Omar Vizquel gets in instead peak 6 WAR 111OPS+ GG defense.

[Hanjag]

It might be fun if somebody would put all-time rosters for some of these I am going to start with our 77 sisters the Blue Jays.

[Hanjag]

Blue Jays
SP (38.5 WAR)
1. Roy Holladay peak (19 starts I put the imaginary limit as 1/2 season to qualify)185ERA+ 8.8 WAR 2X CY
2.Dave Steib peak 171 ERA+ 7.0 WAR #4,5 CY voting
3. Jimmy Key peak 164 ERA+ 7.4 WAR #2 twice CY voting
4. Pat Hentgan peak 156 ERA+ 8.6 BWAR CY win and a #6 voting
5. Juan Guzman peak 171 ERA+ 6.7 WAR CY#7 voting
or
5. Marcus Stroman peak 145 ERA+ 5.3 WAR #8 CY vote (160 ERA+ this year)
I think I have the 1st 4 right by my criteria and I know Celmons stopped here Jack Morris was part of the WS runs. Suggestions or is this the best 5

BP (15.9 WAR)
Closer Tom Henke Peak ERA+ 229 3.4 WAR MVP #13 voting
Duane Ward Peak ERA 209 3.1 CY #5 vote
Roberto Osuna peak ERA+ 210 2.1 WAR
Billy Koch Peak 193 ERA+ 2.5 WAR
Casey Jensen peak 191 ERA+ 1.9 WAR
Mike Timlin peak 222 ERA+ 2.9 WAR

Lineup (56.2 WAR)
C Ernie Whitt peak 120 OPS+ 3.4 WAR
1B John Olerud peak 186 OPS+ 7.8 WAR GG MVP#3 voting
2B Aaron Hill peak 133 OPS+ 5.8 WAR
SS Tony Fernandez Peak 125 OPS+ 5.1 WAR MVP8 all-time position player WAR leader for Blue Jays
3B Edwin Encarcion Peak 153 OPS+ 5 WAR
DH Carlos Delgado Peak 181 OPS+ 7.3 MVP #2 voting
OF Jose Bautista Peak 182 OPS+ 8.3 WAR MVP #3
CF Vernon Wells peak 132 OPS+ 6.2 WAR
CF Loyd Moseby peak 134 OPS+ 7.3 WAR

Blue Jays traded for a lot of key established players Roberto Alomar may be the best 2B I have seen but he had 3 years of 3 to 5 WAR years with SD, Josh Donaldson was another traded stud player their best 3B

Does anyone have any must replace or is this a fair all time Jays roster?

[Hanjag]

player/ position peak OPS+/ERA+ WAR peak SB
SP 1-5
Randy Johnson peak 197ERA+ 10.7 WAR 5X CY
Felix peak 174 ERA+ 7.2 1XCY, #2CY(2)
Mark Langston peak 140 ERA+ 8.5 WAR #5,6 cy
Freddy Garcia Peak 135 ERA+ 5.4 WAR cy #3,9
James Paxton peak 140 ERA+ 4.6 WAR
BP 6 best
Closer Diaz peak 234 ERA+ 3.2 WAR
SU Kaz 169 ERA+ 1.3 WAR
SU JJ Putz 319 ERA+ 4 WAR
SU Mark Lowe 385 ERA+ 1.6 WAR
BP Mike Montgomery 174 ERA+ 2.2 WAR
BP Carson Smith 166 ERA+ 2.4 WAR

PLAYER Position peak OPS+, WAR, SB
1 Ichiro RF 130 9.2 56SB
2. ARod SS 176 10.4 46SB
3. Griffey CF 171 8.2 24SB
4. Edgar DH 185 7.0* 14SB
5. Kyle Seager 3B 133 6.9 13SB
6. Boone 2B 153 8.8 16SB
7 Alvin Davis 1B 156 6 5SB
8. Mitch Haniger LF 138 6.1 8SB
9. Omar Narvaez C 132 3* 0SB
Bench OFDH Ibanez 132 4.5 peak,Danny Tartabull 171 OPS+ 4.4WAR Ken Phelps peak 170 OPS+, 2.6 WAR, Tino Martinez 1B 143 OPS+ 5.1 C pick of Dan Wilson, Kenji Jojima, Mike Zuniino 125 OPS+ 3.4WAR, Maybe Buhner 138OPS+ 3.5 WAR peak I am tempted to put in McKlemore of super utility but Omar Vizquel gets in instead peak 6 WAR 111OPS+ GG defense.

Any other suggestions?
Edits 1 MIke Moore over Freddy or Paxton
player/ position peak OPS+/ERA+ WAR peak SB
SP 1-5
Randy Johnson peak 197ERA+ 10.7 WAR 5X CY
Felix peak 174 ERA+ 7.2 1XCY, #2CY(2)
Mark Langston peak 140 ERA+ 8.5 WAR #5,6 cy
Freddy Garcia Peak 135 ERA+ 5.4 WAR cy #3,9
James Paxton peak 140 ERA+ 4.6 WAR
or
Mike Moore Peak 142 ERA+ 6.3 WAR CY #3 vote
Totals WAR
Bill Swift Starter reliever CY vote #2 starter 138 ERA+ 4.5 WAR,year before part time starter 4.4 WAR tear before exclusive BP 3.7 WAR
BP 6 best
Closer Diaz peak 234 ERA+ 3.2 WAR
SU Kaz 169 ERA+ 1.3 WAR
SU JJ Putz 319 ERA+ 4 WAR
SU Mark Lowe 385 ERA+ 1.6 WAR
BP Mike Montgomery 174 ERA+ 2.2 WAR
BP Jeff Nelson 220 ERA + 2.9
Probably gotta sub in Bill Swift and a 4.4 WAR swing year or a 3.7 WAR pure BP
PLAYER Position peak OPS+, WAR, SB
1 Ichiro RF 130 9.2 56SB
2. ARod SS 176 10.4 46SB
3. Griffey CF 171 8.2 24SB
4. Edgar DH 185 7.0* 14SB
5. Kyle Seager 3B 133 6.9 13SB
6. Boone 2B 153 8.8 16SB
7 Alvin Davis 1B 156 6 5SB
8. Mitch Haniger LF 138 6.1 8SB
9. Omar Narvaez C 132 3* 0SB
Bench OFDH Ibanez 132 4.5 peak,Danny Tartabull 171 OPS+ 4.4WAR Ken Phelps peak 170 OPS+, 2.6 WAR, Tino Martinez 1B 143 OPS+ 5.1 C pick of Dan Wilson, Kenji Jojima, Mike Zuniino 125 OPS+ 3.4WAR, Maybe Buhner 138OPS+ 3.5 WAR peak I am tempted to put in McKlemore of super utility but Omar Vizquel gets in instead peak 6 WAR 111OPS+ GG defense.

[Petert]

I’m stuck on a train between Belfast and Dublin, with a cap on my WiFi (so I can’t do r/t analysis) but I’ll take a swipe at the Mets, challenging myself to swag this on memory and perception. Accordingly, you all can feel free to tear it apart based on analytics, and I will take no umbrage. (I will, however, enjoy a pint or two of the black stuff while reading the thread, and further numb the pain. I will, at least, have gotten the Seaver selection right.) Slainte !

SP (5)
Seaver
Gooden
Leiter
DeGrom
Koosman
Notable Exceptions: Darling, Fernandez, Matlack

RP (5)
SU: McGraw
LH Closer: Orosco
RH Closer: Familia
SU: McDowell
SU: Heilman

Player Position:
C: Hundley
1B: Kranepool
2B: Hunt
SS: Reyes
3B: Wright
OF: Beltran
OF: Strawberry
OF: C. Jones

Bench: McReynolds, Knight, Alfonzo, Murphy

[Hanjag]

With out researching it the only thing that stick out is Beltran was a Royal-Astro before he was a Met. I had second thoughts about this while doing the Blue Jays and even Mariner-Yankees. The Blue Jays traded for several all-star HOF level players some short term some integral long term players. Toronto's best 3B was Josh Donaldson and he was a team member for several years. Robbie Alomar was one of the best 2B ever, again traded for. Clemons, Cone, Rickey Henderson are other examples of premium talent that was acquired. Problem came up when Yankees vs. Mariners several of the best all-time were being shared Randy Johnson was both an M and Yankee, same with Robbie Cano, Alex Rodriguez, James Paxton, Ichiro,Tartabull, Ibanez, and Jeff Nelson. I am not sure but there are probably a few others like Rickey Henderson that were both Yankees and M's.

I could actually agree for guys like Beltre or Cano Arod being included as long as you used peak seasons with 2nd-3rd or whatever club. M's had Henderson at age 41 and he was decent but M's claiming they had Henderson and a 9.9 WAR 189 OPS+ peak player is wrong and going head to head with multiple same players is kinda silly.

My .02$

[Petert]

Blue Jays
SP
1. Roy Holladay peak (19 starts I put the imaginary limit as 1/2 season to qualify)185ERA+ 8.8 WAR 2X CY
2.Dave Steib peak 171 ERA+ 7.0 WAR #4,5 CY voting
3. Jimmy Key peak 164 ERA+ 7.4 WAR #2 twice CY voting
4. Pat Hentgan peak 156 ERA+ 8.6 BWAR CY win and a #6 voting
5. Juan Guzman peak 171 ERA+ 6.7 WAR CY#7 voting
or
5. Marcus Stroman peak 145 ERA+ 5.3 WAR #8 CY vote (160 ERA+ this year)
I think I have the 1st 4 right by my criteria and I know Celmons stopped here Jack Morris was part of the WS runs. Suggestions or is this the best 5

BP
Closer Tom Henke Peak ERA+ 229 3.4 WAR MVP #13 voting
Duane Ward Peak ERA 209 3.1 CY #5 vote
Roberto Osuna peak ERA+ 210 2.1 WAR
Billy Koch Peak 193 ERA+ 2.5 WAR
Casey Jensen peak 191 ERA+ 1.9 WAR
Mike Timlin peak 222 ERA+ 2.9 WAR

Lineup
C Ernie Whitt peak 120 OPS+ 3.4 WAR
1B John Olerud peak 186 OPS+ 7.8 WAR GG MVP#3 voting
2B Aaron Hill peak 133 OPS+ 5.8 WAR
SS Tony Fernandez Peak 125 OPS+ 5.1 WAR MVP8 all-time position player WAR leader for Blue Jays
3B Edwin Encarcion Peak 153 OPS+ 5 WAR
OF Carlos Delgado Peak 181 OPS+ 7.3 MVP #2 voting
OF Jose Bautista Peak 182 OPS+ 8.3 WAR MVP #3
CF Vernon Wells peak 132 OPS+ 6.2 WAR
CF Loyd Moseby peak 134 OPS+ 7.3 WAR

Blue Jays traded for a lot of key established players Roberto Alomar may be the best 2B I have seen but he had 3 years of 3 to 5 WAR years with SD, Josh Donaldson was another traded stud player their best 3B

Does anyone have any must replace opr is this a fair all time Jays roster?

I’d counter George Bell to Vernon Wells, but they’re probably pretty close.

[VOR]

Blue Jays
SP
1. Roy Holladay peak (19 starts I put the imaginary limit as 1/2 season to qualify)185ERA+ 8.8 WAR 2X CY
2.Dave Steib peak 171 ERA+ 7.0 WAR #4,5 CY voting
3. Jimmy Key peak 164 ERA+ 7.4 WAR #2 twice CY voting
4. Pat Hentgan peak 156 ERA+ 8.6 BWAR CY win and a #6 voting
5. Juan Guzman peak 171 ERA+ 6.7 WAR CY#7 voting
or
5. Marcus Stroman peak 145 ERA+ 5.3 WAR #8 CY vote (160 ERA+ this year)
I think I have the 1st 4 right by my criteria and I know Celmons stopped here Jack Morris was part of the WS runs. Suggestions or is this the best 5

BP
Closer Tom Henke Peak ERA+ 229 3.4 WAR MVP #13 voting
Duane Ward Peak ERA 209 3.1 CY #5 vote
Roberto Osuna peak ERA+ 210 2.1 WAR
Billy Koch Peak 193 ERA+ 2.5 WAR
Casey Jensen peak 191 ERA+ 1.9 WAR
Mike Timlin peak 222 ERA+ 2.9 WAR

Lineup
C Ernie Whitt peak 120 OPS+ 3.4 WAR
1B John Olerud peak 186 OPS+ 7.8 WAR GG MVP#3 voting
2B Aaron Hill peak 133 OPS+ 5.8 WAR
SS Tony Fernandez Peak 125 OPS+ 5.1 WAR MVP8 all-time position player WAR leader for Blue Jays
3B Edwin Encarcion Peak 153 OPS+ 5 WAR
OF Carlos Delgado Peak 181 OPS+ 7.3 MVP #2 voting
OF Jose Bautista Peak 182 OPS+ 8.3 WAR MVP #3
CF Vernon Wells peak 132 OPS+ 6.2 WAR
CF Loyd Moseby peak 134 OPS+ 7.3 WAR

Blue Jays traded for a lot of key established players Roberto Alomar may be the best 2B I have seen but he had 3 years of 3 to 5 WAR years with SD, Josh Donaldson was another traded stud player their best 3B

Does anyone have any must replace opr is this a fair all time Jays roster?

Delgado was a 1B, and tiny bit at Ca, not OF. He's the DH. Jessie Barfield might belong in OF. Best 2B was R Alomar, who had his best years there, but was established with the Padres so might not qualify.

Clemens had his 2 best years for Toronto but it was just 2. Jimmy Key was a spectacular pitcher for Toronto, Think Moyer at least.