Poll on Ichiro

[bpj]

10, 11, 12, we all knew the Mariners weren't spending any more because they had too huge a chunk invested in Ichiro's incompetent ass to fill in elsewhere.

We were just waiting him out like we are Felix. Just like we couldn't push too hard the last few years with Felix getting paid $25mil he wasnt "earning". It was no different with Ichiro back then.

Plus, we needed power, something you could put in RF. You know, the spot Ichiro was wasting.

They couldn't find power for DH. They didn't completely develop more than 1 player every 5 years. They spent in free agency on garbage. Your opinions are nonsense. They ignore facts that have just been told to you.

Your so called "facts" dont mean jackshit. Lots of change can happen in a year when there's a clean slate, i.e. Ichiro not playing a power position, or getting paid 18 mil, by us.

[DavidGee24]

When Ichiro was hitting over .300 with his speed and defense he was a very useful player. Once he dropped under .300 with his on-base percentage being dragged down with it he wasn't. Just like Dee Gordon, who has to hit over .300 and have an on-base percentage of about .350 to be useful.

[bpj]

When Ichiro was hitting over .300 with his speed and defense he was a very useful player. Once he dropped under .300 with his on-base percentage being dragged down with it he wasn't. Just like Dee Gordon, who has to hit over .300 and have an on-base percentage of about .350 to be useful.

That's exactly it.

And on top of the hitting and speed decline, he wasn't playing a position that could mask his low OPS (2B).

Much worse, he was playing a position that came at a huge opportunity cost for our team whether wishhiker would like to acknowledge it or not.

It's not that they "couldn't find power for DH", they just weren't going to put more money into the team while they rode out his contract.

[Captain 97]

The light hitting take is way overstated. From 27 through 36 he had 1588 Games of .331/.376/.430 .806. That's not light hitting.

Actually when your slugging percentage is less than .100 points above your average, thats the very definition of light hitting. The only Mariner with significant playing time this year who does not have a Slugging percentage well over .100 points higher than their average is Gordon. In 2001 the year Ichiro came to the US, the MLB wide average was .256 and the MLB wide Slugging percentage was .427 that means a hitter with average power is +.171.

Since 1968 When they lowered the mound there have been 52 players to hit over .300 for their careers. 33 of them have hit for a slugging percentage above .450, 19 of them are over .500 and 6 are over .550. Ichiro's .402 career slugging percentage ranks 50th out of the 52 with only Matty Alou .383 and Manny Mota .381 being worse.

[D-train]

It is actually called ISO and Ichiro is 77th worst out of 934 qualified hitters since 2001

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx? ... &page=3_30

[Wishhiker]

When Ichiro was hitting over .300 with his speed and defense he was a very useful player. Once he dropped under .300 with his on-base percentage being dragged down with it he wasn't. Just like Dee Gordon, who has to hit over .300 and have an on-base percentage of about .350 to be useful.

That's exactly it.

And on top of the hitting and speed decline, he wasn't playing a position that could mask his low OPS (2B).

Much worse, he was playing a position that came at a huge opportunity cost for our team whether wishhiker would like to acknowledge it or not.

It's not that they "couldn't find power for DH", they just weren't going to put more money into the team while they rode out his contract.

His 4th year of the 5 year extension is that point you're describing. They did sign FA's to deals that promptly died and were buried out back. Chone Figgins, Miguel Batista and Carlos Silva were all during that period and probably all top 5 worst Mariner FA signings ever. Zduriencik was horrible at bringing in talent and/or his coaches were horrible at getting them to produce. Blaming Ichiro only in a team sport for years of 101 losses, 101 losses, 95 losses, 87 losses and squandering Cinderellaing into 10 games out of a wild card is complete nonsense. Could have possibly? Sure, I'd believe that if I had any reason to believe they would have payed for players that they could actually properly project to playing well in Seattle. There was absolutely zero indication that they could

When Ichiro was near 20% of payroll it was not his fault in any way. $18 million being 20% of a payroll in the 2000's in Seattle requires cheap-ass ownership. You're talking about having a payroll under $100 million those years. That was the end that was the problem. The ownership structure has changed since then and payroll has risen considerably. People are still making excuses for cheap ownership though.

In fact the year after Ichiro was traded they signed Cano to $24mm per. Almost half again (+4/9) the dollars per year as the top 3 payouts to Ichiro but for 10 years. $6 million more each year. Also added Iwakuma. Cano and Felix combined ($47.557mm) for almost 52% of the team payroll that year. The very next year the same ownership and GM (that wouldn't put money out while they didn't rebuild or develop players with Ichiro's paltry $18mm) added Cruz for another $14.25 million per, bringing the top 3 players over $63 million combined. This time they upped payroll so the top 3 were coming for just over 50% of the total outlay. Suddenly they're not crippled by an even larger contract and are able to add one that's near as much as Ichiro's in the first place. That's because the $18 million was never crippling in the first place.

[bpj]

Yeah, exactly, once Ichiros contract was off the books they made a push. They knew it was a boat anchor. We all waited it out, where were you? We're doing the same now with Felix.

I don't blame Ichiro much more than I do Felix. He was just about as bad, blocking 1 of 4 power positions, compared to Felix wasting a spot in the rotation, both at 20%ish of the team payroll.

I don't hold the world against Ichiro any more than I do Felix, but a winner would have to be built despite their presence, not because they help. He wasnt a good RF after his prime.

[Wishhiker]

Yeah, exactly, once Ichiros contract was off the books they made a push. They knew it was a boat anchor. We all waited it out, where were you? We're doing the same now with Felix.

I don't blame Ichiro much more than I do Felix. He was just about as bad, blocking 1 of 4 power positions, compared to Felix wasting a spot in the rotation, both at 20%ish of the team payroll.

I don't hold the world against Ichiro any more than I do Felix, but a winner would have to be built despite their presence, not because they help. He wasnt a good RF after his prime.

His prime extended 3 years into his 5 year extension. Unlike Felix. And Felix at half again the dollars per year of Ichiro has been a lower percentage of team payroll in almost every year.

[bpj]

I guess it's subjective.

Ichiro in 2006 was 17th in OPS among qualified RF.

As his game continued to decline he got worse in every way.

I would never have given him an extension to play RF. They even tried to make him a CF, because THEY KNEW he shouldn't be taking up RF. He couldn't cut it so they threw their hands up. We give.

He got an extension because he was Ichiro and our owners were Japanese. That's not racist to say if it's true.

[Hanjag]

In 2011 John Olerud got 4 votes or 0.7%. He finished his career with 57.2 fWAR.

In 2025 Ichiro is expected to be a 1st ballot HOFer with 57.8 fWAR

Clearly there is more to the HOF than WAR but that seems a little off.

J.O. was a traditional player he even skipped the minors played a handful of games at age 20. He had a few monster seasons and many good ones. Go Cougs!

Ichiro: You know the story, The Japanese Jordan. He came over with such a reputation it was big news and I remember it. IN Japan he played at 18 and 19 but was clearly not up to speed sub .600 OPS but at age 20 he became full time and OPS in th .900 range for 7 seasons. If he was in the US he clearly would have had a lot more counting stats speaking of counting:
.303 .375 .409 .784
that is Pete Rose I don't know but Ichiro probably could have got the hits record and probably equals Rose at 79.7 BWAR.
.311 .355 .402 .757 Ichiro

Not to mention Ichiro would have had many more peak years early so the OPS would be higher. Ichiro was a great defender and base runner as well.

If you don't think Ichiro deserves to be in the H.O.F. you are racist.