Dilly is a Ranger?

[Donn Beach]

I am sure you are right about casual fans having no idea about this just like I didn't when I was a kid. But explaining it on a Baseball Forum is like explaining how Batting average is calculated. Everyone here is well aware of team control.

The impact of being able to exclusively negotiate with the young players can't be underemphasized. Unless they are a Scott Boras client, then you can almost always buy out a few years of free agency.

I'm only coming back to it based on sentiment expressed along the lines of "fuck the farm" and spending is too low.

wait a minute...the six seasons of control is very important, and being able to negotiate an extension can be important. But I don't see it as some sort of game changer. It has become kind of the flavor du jour lately, the Braves seemingly the most aggressive. Dipoto promotes it but where has it been that successful an actual model? The Braves now have pretty much collapsed. The Red Sox bailed on their stab at it. Toronto is now on the board but its going to be some time before that can be deemed a success

[Michael K.]

Buckner was pretty solid but I think he would have had a much shorter career if GMs had access to advanced stats back then. He put up -2.9 WAR his last 7 seasons.

Again, WAR. J Rod was in the 90s in OPS, Slugging and On Base %, maybe four or five weeks ago. I posted all of that, and yet guys told me that his WAR made him almost elite. So? Fuck WAR. If you can actually tell me that a guy with an On Base, Slugging, and OPS in the 90s in all of baseball, deserves a WAR that makes him almost elite, because he does some other things that create and save more runs then he costs them by being a shitty hitter? Than we have to disagree.

You guys love your nerdy stats. I like to watch guys that do shit on the field that helps there team win. Lacing up cleats and standing at SS or CF and having your WAR inflated is a joke. No chance they save as many runs as being 90th and hitting costs them.

[DavidGee24]

I think if you put Dylan in Wrigley or Fenway in the 70s and 80s he would be just about as productive offensively as Buckner in terms of OPS. And he brings positional versatility and good defense that puts him over the top. I will concede that he has never done it playing every day and he might get exposed but usually when guys play every day it is much easier to maintain their timing.

Buckner was pretty solid but I think he would have had a much shorter career if GMs had access to advanced stats back then. He put up -2.9 WAR his last 7 seasons.

I think a fair way to approach this would be to assess Moore based on his career road stats. If you prorated his road numbers to per 600 plate appearances, he'd hit about .230, on-base of about .330, slugging about .420, 30 doubles, 20 home runs, good speed and good defense.

To also be fair to Buckner, in his age 21-36 seasons before he fell apart he was a guy who'd hit about .300, on-base of about .330, slugging about .430 (and bear in mind I'm averaging this out, some years he was better, some not as good), 40 doubles, 15 home runs, decent speed and horrible defense at first base and left field. Despite the nice batting average he had SIX seasons in which he finished in the top ten in outs made, and in 1985 and 1986 he was second in outs made.

Much of this time Buckner played half his games at Dodger, Wrigley and Fenway whereas Moore's road stats includes both hitters' and pitchers' parks.

Overall I'd take Buckner but he was very overrated.

[D-train]

I am sure you are right about casual fans having no idea about this just like I didn't when I was a kid. But explaining it on a Baseball Forum is like explaining how Batting average is calculated. Everyone here is well aware of team control.

The impact of being able to exclusively negotiate with the young players can't be underemphasized. Unless they are a Scott Boras client, then you can almost always buy out a few years of free agency.

I'm only coming back to it based on sentiment expressed along the lines of "fuck the farm" and spending is too low.

Nobody is saying Fuck the farm, we are saying the the farm should have been better utilized to add more and better BP arms.

[Michael K.]

Nobody is saying Fuck the farm, we are saying the the farm should have been better utilized to add more and better BP arms.

I'd be content if they were as happy with their trips to the playoffs and winning playoff series as they were in celebrating the Farm System and 1995 and 2001. but, when the best thing about your current team is the number of guys you have riding a bus to their games?

[D-train]

Buckner was pretty solid but I think he would have had a much shorter career if GMs had access to advanced stats back then. He put up -2.9 WAR his last 7 seasons.

Again, WAR. J Rod was in the 90s in OPS, Slugging and On Base %, maybe four or five weeks ago. I posted all of that, and yet guys told me that his WAR made him almost elite. So? Fuck WAR. If you can actually tell me that a guy with an On Base, Slugging, and OPS in the 90s in all of baseball, deserves a WAR that makes him almost elite, because he does some other things that create and save more runs then he costs them by being a shitty hitter? Than we have to disagree.

You guys love your nerdy stats. I like to watch guys that do shit on the field that helps there team win. Lacing up cleats and standing at SS or CF and having your WAR inflated is a joke. No chance they save as many runs as being 90th and hitting costs them.

You keep saying standing at Standing at SS or CF. Pretty sure both Julio and Dylan play great D. I do agree that bWAR does over value Defense to some extent but it is better than ignoring it.

Buckner had negative WAR his last 7 seasons primarily because he could not longer hit. Sub 700 OPS.

[D-train]

Julio has 5.2 bWAR and 4.3 fWAR. I hate that there is a significant difference.

[DanielVogelbach]

wait a minute...the six seasons of control is very important, and being able to negotiate an extension can be important. But I don't see it as some sort of game changer. It has become kind of the flavor du jour lately, the Braves seemingly the most aggressive. Dipoto promotes it but where has it been that successful an actual model? The Braves now have pretty much collapsed. The Red Sox bailed on their stab at it. Toronto is now on the board but its going to be some time before that can be deemed a success

I don't know what you mean by game changer, but it's the only reason small market teams can compete with Dodgers and Yankees in a league without a salary cap.

My point is that it's not just 6 years, because most young players will happily sign a small extension to avoid arbitration and lock up some millions. So, you typically can get them to sign an extension and now you're talking 8 years. The first 8 years of their career.

Some players won't sign the extension. I'm sure Scott Boras has some sort of insurance policy for them. But, he wants them on the open market ASAP to maximize total money. Most players and agents happily sign the extensions though, because it guarantees the player is set for life in case they get injured and can't play any more.

[D-train]

M's have done three:

White: Epic Bust
Julio: So far so good
Cal: Epic success

[DavidGee24]

Julio has 5.2 bWAR and 4.3 fWAR. I hate that there is a significant difference.

I think bWAR is more accurate. fWAR would show Kikuchi was a good pitcher as a Mariner and we all know that's BS.