Mariner Talk Chat Forum

Interesting article in 538 on the decline of finesse pitchers like Moyer.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/wh ... hers-gone/

I like this bit.

To call a pitcher “crafty” is a kind of backhanded compliment. After all, if a guy has overwhelming velocity or electric stuff, we would just talk about that as an explanation for him getting hitters out. (Strikeouts may be fascist, but they are also impressive.)

Hmm, the link to Bull Durham didn’t carryover. Here it is, I hope.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G-guv9Pd_RA

This isn't the 1970's when teams were, what, 90% white? And 95% white or black.

The talent level has risen so dramatically that the numbers across eras simply do not translate imo.

A good team now would demolish a good team from years ago. They never saw pitching like what's in MLB today on every team. Nor did that subpar pitching see hitting like we have in todays game.

The numbers look comparable because talent has risen on both sides of the ball, but as with OBP < OPS, old era baseball would not hold the jockstrap of current MLB.

Almost every team has upper 90's fireballers now.

bpj wrote: ↑

Tue May 28, 2019 7:26 pm

This isn't the 1970's when teams were, what, 90% white? And 95% white or black.

The talent level has risen so dramatically that the numbers across eras simply do not translate imo.

A good team now would demolish a good team from years ago. They never saw pitching like what's in MLB today on every team. Nor did that subpar pitching see hitting like we have in todays game.

The numbers look comparable because talent has risen on both sides of the ball, but as with OBP < OPS, old era baseball would not hold the jockstrap of current MLB.

Almost every team has upper 90's fireballers now.

I disagree, at least in part.
In 1920 the US population was 106 million in 2019 it is like 330 million so you have 3 more draws at the deck for a yahtzee super human level athlete be it a Bolt level sprinter or a King James hoopster. Most folks here narrow down best ever NBA guy to James or Jordan I will give another possible.

Wilt the stilt Chamberlin.
Wilt Chamberlain had held Seventy-two NBA records, according to NBA.com.

Just to name a few:

Most seasons leading the league in minutes--8
Most points in a game--100
Highest scoring average in a season--50.4
Most seasons leading the league in field goal percentage--9
Highest average in rebounds over a career--22.9
Most free throws made in a game--28 ( and he was an awful free throw shooter)
Never was disqualified from an NBA game.
Most completed games in a season--79.

Athletic Freak
He beat NFL legend Jim Brown in a race and won several Big8 championships in track and field sprints, high jump, triple jump, shot put.
After the NBA he went on to join pro volley ball becoming the MVP (Seattle Smashers)!
Heavy weight boxing champ Floyd Patterson tried to show him up by doing fingertip push-ups he did 158 Wilt did 200. Floyd was a sweaty mess because he maxed out Wilt didn't break a sweat.
https://twitter.com/wiltcarchive/status ... 96?lang=en

Does any one else think that the Chuck Norris jokes were really about Wilt.

When Wilt was in Conan
Wilt and Arnold stared on the movie Conan the Destroyer together. The two quickly became friends. Schwarzenegger once remarked that "Wilt was the strongest Human being I have ever seen". He goes on to explain how he would lift up Arnold and Andre the Giant with one hand. Chamberlain and Arnold also had several different encounters in the weight room. "He would a tricep extesion, the biggest strongest guys would do 120 and he would come and do 150, 170 pounds."
https://www.legendssf.com/blogs/legends ... hamberlain
NBA highest verticle ever
#12 Lebtron James 44"
#3 Air Jordan Spud Webb 46"
#1 tied Wilt Chamberlin and Darrell Griffith 48"
http://theexercisers.com/how-to-increas ... mp-in-nba/

So, yes I agree with more population in 2019 vs 1919 in the USA you get more draws at the deck. MLB recruits more heavily abroad now then back then. Again more draws at the deck. But common estimates is that there has been somewhere over 100 billion to 200 billion people. So, the 7.5 Billion people represent a 3.75 to 7.5% of the draws at the deck. Talking any sport maybe Babe Ruth was above and beyond everybody ever. Maybe he was the best 1%of the best 1% of the best 1%of the best 1% and/or maybe he was being compared to a more shallow talent pool. To go the other way in 1920 when the Cleveland Indians beat the Brooklyn Robyns there was only 16 teams.
There have always been big arm talent:
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/just ... equipment/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzhwYdg-W1M

I didn't read all that because I'm not talking about US population because we're not talking about college or lower baseball.

We're talking about drawing the top talent from around the world like MLB does now, which it didn't in the past.

Our population doesnt mean anything when half the MLB players arent from the US now.

Luis Castro in 1902 became the 1st foreign born player to play in MLB. Drawing from around the world. Japan has a 130 million people and a handful of players in mlb. Latin America Mexico has a few players also 130 million. The islands seem to produce a number of players Dominican, Cuba are big producers of mlb players. It seems like other S. American countries add another player or two. I looked it up 27% of mlb are foreign borne. If you look at world population 7.5 B or so and USA 1/3 of a billion it would be 1 to in 22.5 would be native to the USA.
I was a bit off. Here is the count from 2018
Dominican was #1 with 84 players
Venezuela #2 74 (this is what shocked me)
#3 Cuba 17
#4 Mexico 11
#5 Japan 8
#6 Canada and S Korea 6
#8 Colombia and Curacao 5 each
#10 Aussie, Brazil, Nicaragua, Panama 3 each
#14 1 ea Aruba, Germany, Lithuania, Netherlands, South Africa and Taiwan

The NBA is the same way. I watch the Olympics and many of the other countries basically reclaim immigrants from the USA and their international students and most of their rosters are guys that played, or are playing in the USA. currently under 25%
https://www.businessinsider.com/growing ... ws-2018-10

NFL less than 3% foreign born.

The other Futbol shows that MLS players US domestic players are actually the minority in the US pro soccer league. In 2013 51.7% in 2018 42.2%
https://www.businessinsider.com/number- ... ned-2018-3

So you guys are arguing that the decline in finesse pitchers is because all these foreign guys are big and strong but not crafty?

How long can a guy be crafty? One season if your name in LeBlanc.

I guess Bartolo Colon would be a guy with out high velo that has been good recently.

Wilt the stilt Chamberlin.
Wilt Chamberlain had held Seventy-two NBA records, according to NBA.com.

Just to name a few:

Most seasons leading the league in minutes--8
Most points in a game--100
Highest scoring average in a season--50.4
Most seasons leading the league in field goal percentage--9
Highest average in rebounds over a career--22.9
Most free throws made in a game--28 ( and he was an awful free throw shooter)
Never was disqualified from an NBA game.
Most completed games in a season--79.

Also let's not forget the 20,000 women he banged. I believe that is an NBA record as well.