Wants versus needs versus cold hard reality

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Case_Of_The_Runs
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Wants versus needs versus cold hard reality

Post by Case_Of_The_Runs » Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:18 pm

Hi all –

I have been following the threads on off season acquisitions with some interest. Obviously we would all like the M’s to go out and get the top tier free agents based on our needs. But I am wondering what might be realistic versus what would be on our “in a perfect world” list. I mean I would love a Ferrari, but realistically I think my next car will be a Fiat. It’s not as sexy, but it is dependable, has 4 wheels and an engine, and it wouldn’t require me to sell my house, live out of a refrigerator crate and eat Kraft mac and cheese for 10 years. And then 3 years later when I realize I can’t afford the insurance on it and that whole living out of a cardboard box eating stale Kraft dinners isn’t working out so well, I try to sell it on Craigs list only to realize I am never going to get a decent resale value on a 3 year old Ferrari thanks to depreciation and “who wants a 3 year old Ferrari”? If those last 2 sentences were too cryptic, that’s my metaphor for the last (Robinson Cano) deal the M’s made that handcuffed their ability to build a true baseball team.

So, my question to the group is this – what do we need (I mean really need) next year? And the next question is “what can we realistically hope to get that would meet our needs”? I think we can all agree that JD will be getting some big names, either through trades or FA. But I don’t think he is going to put all of our eggs in one basket and pull off one uber-big Robinson Cano-ish deal and then a bunch of dumpster-diving Mallex Smith deals to fill out the 40-man roster. Hindsight being 20/20, those didn’t work out too well for us. So what can we really do?

Here's my list of what I think we need as well as what I don’t think we need. Thoughts here are appreciated.

What we need:
2B – we need a second baseman. Correa is the top free agent on the market next year, but we aren’t going to get him. Someone like the Yankees will happily overpay because, well, it’s what the Yankees do. Not only that, but Correa has no interest in moving from SS to 2B. So fuhgetaboutit. So – we are left with second tier 2B (or some pretty decent SS willing to move to 2B because we filled the swimming pool in his mansion with cash).

Left handed hitters – we have a crap ton of righties, but apart from Fraley, Kelenic, and Crawford, we don’t have pure lefties. Toro and Cal are switch hitters, but we need a few more lefties, and any discussion of obtaining an OF or even a 2B or 3B should consider this.

Pitching – obviously. We need 2 starters, likely one LHP and RHP. And we need studs – Flexen, Gilbert and Marco are middle or bottom of the rotation guys. Anderson or Paxton may give us depth, but I wouldn’t slot them in as the top 2 in the rotation. I’m out on those guys. So we need a couple of biggish names – either through FA or trade – that can be top of the order guys.

OF – maybe. We have a young core that could prove to be the best in baseball…in a few years. Mitch maybe gone in a year, so having a veteran who can play multiple positions in the OF would be great. And if he’s a lefty, all the better. But do we want a long term solution here with Lewis coming back, JRod on the rise, and Kelenic looking like he is starting to figure out major league hitting?

Catching – offensively we suck. Cal will be tested this season and likely will develop into a good catcher. But our offensive production here is pathetic. Murphy is decidedly mediocre. In other words, we have 2 serviceable catchers, but nothing that blows the wind through your hair.

What we don’t need:
1B – yeah, I would love Freddie. I would faint if we landed him. But the question is – what do we do with Evan White? He has like 3 or 4 years on his contract. He may not break camp with the M’s in spring training, but he’s the heir apparent to 1B. Defensively – awesome. Offensively, looking up at the Mendoza line isn’t ideal for a team with a negative run differential. So what do we do with him? Unless he is part of a trade deal, we have to leave 1B open for Evan.

3B – yeah, JRam would be dreamy. I write big hearts with his name on them in the margins of the pages of my daytimer. But consider this – if Evan comes back to 1B, either France is a full time DH or he moves to third. France is pretty nimble and a good defensive player as well an offensive machine, so his talents would be half wasted as DH. If we trade for JRam and Evan comes back, what do we do with Ty?

Scherzer – yeah, I know. He’s a pitcher’s pitcher, and he has a pedigree and post season experience. But we would pay through the nose for a guy that takes the mound once every 5 games. And he’s on the wrong side of 30. That’s not a good use of our capital.

So – my questions to the group are 2 fold: first, do you agree with this overly simplistic, armchair GM assessment of our needs? If not, please revise my thinking.

If you are generally on the same page vis-à-vis our needs, who can we realistically get to fill the holes?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

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Re: Wants versus needs versus cold hard reality

Post by D-train » Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:40 pm

Loved the Kraft Mac and Cheese reference but you can always go with the generic brand in hard times! :)

What we need:
2B – we need a second baseman. Correa is the top free agent on the market next year, but we aren’t going to get him. Someone like the Yankees will happily overpay because, well, it’s what the Yankees do. Not only that, but Correa has no interest in moving from SS to 2B. So fuhgetaboutit. So – we are left with second tier 2B (or some pretty decent SS willing to move to 2B because we filled the swimming pool in his mansion with cash). Marcus Andrew Semien (just found out that he has the same middle name as me so even better!)

Left handed hitters – we have a crap ton of righties, but apart from Fraley, Kelenic, and Crawford, we don’t have pure lefties. Toro and Cal are switch hitters, but we need a few more lefties, and any discussion of obtaining an OF or even a 2B or 3B should consider this. Kyle Schwarber or Matt Olson or JRam

Pitching – obviously. We need 2 starters, likely one LHP and RHP. And we need studs – Flexen, Gilbert and Marco are middle or bottom of the rotation guys. Anderson or Paxton may give us depth, but I wouldn’t slot them in as the top 2 in the rotation. I’m out on those guys. So we need a couple of biggish names – either through FA or trade – that can be top of the order guys. Paxton isn't remotely an option. Anderson and Wood is probably the best we can hope for.

OF – maybe. We have a young core that could prove to be the best in baseball…in a few years. Mitch maybe gone in a year, so having a veteran who can play multiple positions in the OF would be great. And if he’s a lefty, all the better. But do we want a long term solution here with Lewis coming back, JRod on the rise, and Kelenic looking like he is starting to figure out major league hitting? Conforto/Scwarber/Bryant

Catching – offensively we suck. Cal will be tested this season and likely will develop into a good catcher. But our offensive production here is pathetic. Murphy is decidedly mediocre. In other words, we have 2 serviceable catchers, but nothing that blows the wind through your hair. Agree but I think we have bigger fish to catch.

What we don’t need:
1B – yeah, I would love Freddie. I would faint if we landed him. But the question is – what do we do with Evan White? He has like 3 or 4 years on his contract. He may not break camp with the M’s in spring training, but he’s the heir apparent to 1B. Defensively – awesome. Offensively, looking up at the Mendoza line isn’t ideal for a team with a negative run differential. So what do we do with him? Unless he is part of a trade deal, we have to leave 1B open for Evan. Freeman is reupping with the Braves. Like Paxton, White should NOT even remotely be a consideration and I would love it if neither of those two names were ever posted on this forum again.. Only reason France should be moved off first is if we trade for Olson.

3B – yeah, JRam would be dreamy. I write big hearts with his name on them in the margins of the pages of my daytimer. But consider this – if Evan comes back to 1B, either France is a full time DH or he moves to third. France is pretty nimble and a good defensive player as well an offensive machine, so his talents would be half wasted as DH. If we trade for JRam and Evan comes back, what do we do with Ty? Same comment as before.

Scherzer – yeah, I know. He’s a pitcher’s pitcher, and he has a pedigree and post season experience. But we would pay through the nose for a guy that takes the mound once every 5 games. And he’s on the wrong side of 30. That’s not a good use of our capital. We aren't signing an ACE or even a TOR.

So – my questions to the group are 2 fold: first, do you agree with this overly simplistic, armchair GM assessment of our needs? If not, please revise my thinking.

If you are generally on the same page vis-à-vis our needs, who can we realistically get to fill the holes?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
dt

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Case_Of_The_Runs
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Re: Wants versus needs versus cold hard reality

Post by Case_Of_The_Runs » Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:43 pm

Looks reasonable to me. But I (lamentably) have to bring White's name up again because (a) he has a multi-year, multi-million dollar contract, so we can't afford to keep him languishing in AAA, and (b) unless he is traded we have to assume he will back again next season, and that buggers up all conversations about 1B, 3B, Ty France and JRam.

So...what do you do with Evan?

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Re: Wants versus needs versus cold hard reality

Post by D-train » Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:49 pm

Case_Of_The_Runs wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:43 pm
Looks reasonable to me. But I (lamentably) have to bring White's name up again because (a) he has a multi-year, multi-million dollar contract, so we can't afford to keep him languishing in AAA, and (b) unless he is traded we have to assume he will back again next season, and that buggers up all conversations about 1B, 3B, Ty France and JRam.

So...what do you do with Evan?
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they try to continue to squeeze blood out of that Turnip but if they think about it rationally they will realize its a sunk cost so they have to pay him the same whether his in Tacoma or Seattle. Only difference is he will be decreasing our playoff chances if they let him cross North over the Pierce King county line.
dt

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Re: Wants versus needs versus cold hard reality

Post by SeattleSportsRUs » Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:09 pm

D-train wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:49 pm
Case_Of_The_Runs wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:43 pm
Looks reasonable to me. But I (lamentably) have to bring White's name up again because (a) he has a multi-year, multi-million dollar contract, so we can't afford to keep him languishing in AAA, and (b) unless he is traded we have to assume he will back again next season, and that buggers up all conversations about 1B, 3B, Ty France and JRam.

So...what do you do with Evan?
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they try to continue to squeeze blood out of that Turnip but if they think about it rationally they will realize its a sunk cost so they have to pay him the same whether his in Tacoma or Seattle. Only difference is he will be decreasing our playoff chances if they let him cross North over the Pierce King county line.
To be fair, the verdict is still out.

The prognosis is bleak, but I'm not going to sit here and write off a 1st round pick w. 279 career at bats. Cal Raleigh has been worse is half the at bats and I don't think anyone is ready to cut him loose.

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Re: Wants versus needs versus cold hard reality

Post by SeattleSportsRUs » Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:17 pm

D-train wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:40 pm
Loved the Kraft Mac and Cheese reference but you can always go with the generic brand in hard times! :)

What we need:
2B – we need a second baseman. Correa is the top free agent on the market next year, but we aren’t going to get him. Someone like the Yankees will happily overpay because, well, it’s what the Yankees do. Not only that, but Correa has no interest in moving from SS to 2B. So fuhgetaboutit. So – we are left with second tier 2B (or some pretty decent SS willing to move to 2B because we filled the swimming pool in his mansion with cash). Marcus Andrew Semien (just found out that he has the same middle name as me so even better!)

Left handed hitters – we have a crap ton of righties, but apart from Fraley, Kelenic, and Crawford, we don’t have pure lefties. Toro and Cal are switch hitters, but we need a few more lefties, and any discussion of obtaining an OF or even a 2B or 3B should consider this. Kyle Schwarber or Matt Olson or JRam

Pitching – obviously. We need 2 starters, likely one LHP and RHP. And we need studs – Flexen, Gilbert and Marco are middle or bottom of the rotation guys. Anderson or Paxton may give us depth, but I wouldn’t slot them in as the top 2 in the rotation. I’m out on those guys. So we need a couple of biggish names – either through FA or trade – that can be top of the order guys. Paxton isn't remotely an option. Anderson and Wood is probably the best we can hope for.

OF – maybe. We have a young core that could prove to be the best in baseball…in a few years. Mitch maybe gone in a year, so having a veteran who can play multiple positions in the OF would be great. And if he’s a lefty, all the better. But do we want a long term solution here with Lewis coming back, JRod on the rise, and Kelenic looking like he is starting to figure out major league hitting? Conforto/Scwarber/Bryant

Catching – offensively we suck. Cal will be tested this season and likely will develop into a good catcher. But our offensive production here is pathetic. Murphy is decidedly mediocre. In other words, we have 2 serviceable catchers, but nothing that blows the wind through your hair. Agree but I think we have bigger fish to catch.

What we don’t need:
1B – yeah, I would love Freddie. I would faint if we landed him. But the question is – what do we do with Evan White? He has like 3 or 4 years on his contract. He may not break camp with the M’s in spring training, but he’s the heir apparent to 1B. Defensively – awesome. Offensively, looking up at the Mendoza line isn’t ideal for a team with a negative run differential. So what do we do with him? Unless he is part of a trade deal, we have to leave 1B open for Evan. Freeman is reupping with the Braves. Like Paxton, White should NOT even remotely be a consideration and I would love it if neither of those two names were ever posted on this forum again.. Only reason France should be moved off first is if we trade for Olson.

3B – yeah, JRam would be dreamy. I write big hearts with his name on them in the margins of the pages of my daytimer. But consider this – if Evan comes back to 1B, either France is a full time DH or he moves to third. France is pretty nimble and a good defensive player as well an offensive machine, so his talents would be half wasted as DH. If we trade for JRam and Evan comes back, what do we do with Ty? Same comment as before.

Scherzer – yeah, I know. He’s a pitcher’s pitcher, and he has a pedigree and post season experience. But we would pay through the nose for a guy that takes the mound once every 5 games. And he’s on the wrong side of 30. That’s not a good use of our capital. We aren't signing an ACE or even a TOR.

So – my questions to the group are 2 fold: first, do you agree with this overly simplistic, armchair GM assessment of our needs? If not, please revise my thinking.

If you are generally on the same page vis-à-vis our needs, who can we realistically get to fill the holes?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
If the M's sign or trade for 3B, I have no problem slotting Abraham Toro at 2B, so long as they then go out and go after a Bryan Reynolds in the OF. They need to add 2x premium bats, I don't care much how or where they do it, so long as they do it. Toro is a solid 2B option for me. But he can't sniff 3B because that hurts the overall construction of the roster. Regarding Marcus Semien, why can't he play 3B? Who knows, maybe the M's are looking at him there.

Evan White is going to have to play himself into a roster spot. I'm talking absolutely tearing up AAA and not missing a beat if he gets AB's in the majors. So I wouldn't be concerned with the M's feeling compelled to giving him a shot, because I don't think that's going to be the case. Ty France is perfectly reasonable at 1B going forward and I don't get the urge some people have to move him. That said, that also shouldn't stop the M's from adding a rotational DH who can play 1B like a Matt Olson if that's in the cards. Good teams add talent and ask questions later, they don't just fill holes.

Responding to DT, why is Anderson or Wood the best you think we're gonna get in regard to pitching in FA? I'm hoping for a trade along this front, but I don't see why adding one of the quality free agent pitchers of this class would be out of the cards. Screw Anderson, I don't want that guy anywhere near the M's given how he derailed our playoff chances with those 2x wonderful starts down the stretch. He's shitty - had a 4.81 ERA for the M's, and we want him back?

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Re: Wants versus needs versus cold hard reality

Post by ice99 » Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:20 pm

One time Blowers spoke about Lou coming to him and telling him that a young player was struggling with the bat. In order to help take the pressure off the young player, Lou wanted Blowers to hit for more power. Blowers mentioned that his average would fall (average was a bigger thing back then), and Lou showed him what to do. I bring this up because I'm not sure the M's have enough RH power too if Haniger goes on the DL. Then they really would only have France. They have Murphy and Torrens but neither will play everyday, and they aren't great hitters. If JRod gets called up and Haniger is gone from 20-100 days, that wouldn't leave the M's in the best position.

This one reason why I like Semien, he solidifies the RH power. Now alternatively, Polanco is a switch hitter, not sure what he'd cost. The Twin have Arraez taking over 2B and they plan to move Polanco back to SS. They could trade Polanco for pitching and reunite with free agent Escobar at SS. Now if they trade for Polanco, that would ease the LH hitter needs, although I think that they need another LH hitter.

I like Schwarber and Conforto is another possibility. They could get Seiya Suzuki, if they trade for Polano, as there would be a lower need for a LH hitter.

Cedric Mullens gave up switch hitting and had a great season. Toro hits for more power LH-ded, although he has a better OBP RH-ded.

I'd like to get a TOR pitcher, which would help in the playoffs. Scherzer seems that he would be too costly, and he's more of a next year playoff play. If they don't make the playoffs next year, it will be a waste of money, at least a year's worth. Gausman doesn't come with a QO and he'd be my first choice. Rodon, Ray, Stroman, ERodriguez, would be fine.

As for White, he never hit at the ML level, and is playing a position more noted for the bat. I'd have him start in AAA. I'd have 1B filled with Schwarber or Olson. White would have to hit better than the DH candidates, Torrens/Toro/Lewis to make the team, imo.
Last edited by ice99 on Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Wants versus needs versus cold hard reality

Post by D-train » Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:24 pm

SeattleSportsRUs wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:09 pm
D-train wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:49 pm
Case_Of_The_Runs wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:43 pm
Looks reasonable to me. But I (lamentably) have to bring White's name up again because (a) he has a multi-year, multi-million dollar contract, so we can't afford to keep him languishing in AAA, and (b) unless he is traded we have to assume he will back again next season, and that buggers up all conversations about 1B, 3B, Ty France and JRam.

So...what do you do with Evan?
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if they try to continue to squeeze blood out of that Turnip but if they think about it rationally they will realize its a sunk cost so they have to pay him the same whether his in Tacoma or Seattle. Only difference is he will be decreasing our playoff chances if they let him cross North over the Pierce King county line.
To be fair, the verdict is still out.

The prognosis is bleak, but I'm not going to sit here and write off a 1st round pick w. 279 career at bats. Cal Raleigh has been worse is half the at bats and I don't think anyone is ready to cut him loose.
Yeah but he has to earn it in AAA. Talking about moving France off 1B where he is GG caliber to 3B where he has been below average for White is insanity in a go for it year.
dt

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Re: Wants versus needs versus cold hard reality

Post by D-train » Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:26 pm

SeattleSportsRUs wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:17 pm
D-train wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 5:40 pm
Loved the Kraft Mac and Cheese reference but you can always go with the generic brand in hard times! :)

What we need:
2B – we need a second baseman. Correa is the top free agent on the market next year, but we aren’t going to get him. Someone like the Yankees will happily overpay because, well, it’s what the Yankees do. Not only that, but Correa has no interest in moving from SS to 2B. So fuhgetaboutit. So – we are left with second tier 2B (or some pretty decent SS willing to move to 2B because we filled the swimming pool in his mansion with cash). Marcus Andrew Semien (just found out that he has the same middle name as me so even better!)

Left handed hitters – we have a crap ton of righties, but apart from Fraley, Kelenic, and Crawford, we don’t have pure lefties. Toro and Cal are switch hitters, but we need a few more lefties, and any discussion of obtaining an OF or even a 2B or 3B should consider this. Kyle Schwarber or Matt Olson or JRam

Pitching – obviously. We need 2 starters, likely one LHP and RHP. And we need studs – Flexen, Gilbert and Marco are middle or bottom of the rotation guys. Anderson or Paxton may give us depth, but I wouldn’t slot them in as the top 2 in the rotation. I’m out on those guys. So we need a couple of biggish names – either through FA or trade – that can be top of the order guys. Paxton isn't remotely an option. Anderson and Wood is probably the best we can hope for.

OF – maybe. We have a young core that could prove to be the best in baseball…in a few years. Mitch maybe gone in a year, so having a veteran who can play multiple positions in the OF would be great. And if he’s a lefty, all the better. But do we want a long term solution here with Lewis coming back, JRod on the rise, and Kelenic looking like he is starting to figure out major league hitting? Conforto/Scwarber/Bryant

Catching – offensively we suck. Cal will be tested this season and likely will develop into a good catcher. But our offensive production here is pathetic. Murphy is decidedly mediocre. In other words, we have 2 serviceable catchers, but nothing that blows the wind through your hair. Agree but I think we have bigger fish to catch.

What we don’t need:
1B – yeah, I would love Freddie. I would faint if we landed him. But the question is – what do we do with Evan White? He has like 3 or 4 years on his contract. He may not break camp with the M’s in spring training, but he’s the heir apparent to 1B. Defensively – awesome. Offensively, looking up at the Mendoza line isn’t ideal for a team with a negative run differential. So what do we do with him? Unless he is part of a trade deal, we have to leave 1B open for Evan. Freeman is reupping with the Braves. Like Paxton, White should NOT even remotely be a consideration and I would love it if neither of those two names were ever posted on this forum again.. Only reason France should be moved off first is if we trade for Olson.

3B – yeah, JRam would be dreamy. I write big hearts with his name on them in the margins of the pages of my daytimer. But consider this – if Evan comes back to 1B, either France is a full time DH or he moves to third. France is pretty nimble and a good defensive player as well an offensive machine, so his talents would be half wasted as DH. If we trade for JRam and Evan comes back, what do we do with Ty? Same comment as before.

Scherzer – yeah, I know. He’s a pitcher’s pitcher, and he has a pedigree and post season experience. But we would pay through the nose for a guy that takes the mound once every 5 games. And he’s on the wrong side of 30. That’s not a good use of our capital. We aren't signing an ACE or even a TOR.

So – my questions to the group are 2 fold: first, do you agree with this overly simplistic, armchair GM assessment of our needs? If not, please revise my thinking.

If you are generally on the same page vis-à-vis our needs, who can we realistically get to fill the holes?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.
If the M's sign or trade for 3B, I have no problem slotting Abraham Toro at 2B, so long as they then go out and go after a Bryan Reynolds in the OF. They need to add 2x premium bats, I don't care much how or where they do it, so long as they do it. Toro is a solid 2B option for me. But he can't sniff 3B because that hurts the overall construction of the roster. Regarding Marcus Semien, why can't he play 3B? Who knows, maybe the M's are looking at him there.

Evan White is going to have to play himself into a roster spot. I'm talking absolutely tearing up AAA and not missing a beat if he gets AB's in the majors. So I wouldn't be concerned with the M's feeling compelled to giving him a shot, because I don't think that's going to be the case. Ty France is perfectly reasonable at 1B going forward and I don't get the urge some people have to move him. That said, that also shouldn't stop the M's from adding a rotational DH who can play 1B like a Matt Olson if that's in the cards. Good teams add talent and ask questions later, they don't just fill holes.

Responding to DT, why is Anderson or Wood the best you think we're gonna get in regard to pitching in FA? I'm hoping for a trade along this front, but I don't see why adding one of the quality free agent pitchers of this class would be out of the cards. Screw Anderson, I don't want that guy anywhere near the M's given how he derailed our playoff chances with those 2x wonderful starts down the stretch. He's shitty - had a 4.81 ERA for the M's, and we want him back?
SS said he wants him back. Not saying what we should do but what I think we will do in this case.
dt

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Re: Wants versus needs versus cold hard reality

Post by Boisehawk » Fri Nov 05, 2021 7:20 pm

Why can’t we….

All positions should be considered for an upgrade. If I am GM I would sign Mitch 4 year 100 million

then I would


Sign

4 year 80 million
Starling Marte (33, 6.7 WAR) CF. Awesome leadoff
Great defense. Fast on the bases and hits for a good average average. Some power.

Make our rooks/in proven fight for the LF spot

4 year 100 million
3rd base: got to go big
Kris Bryant (30, 4.0)

Shortstop : I would love to upgrade but not going to happen.

2nd base
Trade for Marte diamondbacks
Or
3 year 90 million
Marcus Semien (31, 7.8 WAR)

1st base France

Catcher
I think Murph will do better this year.

Cal Raleigh Is going to play. Hopefully he figures it out.

Add 100 million per year for 4 years. It would be nice to add one TOR foe around 30 per year. Brings us to 185-190

I like D. Moore or Toro as utility.

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