HOF thread

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D-train
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HOF thread

Post by D-train » Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:33 pm

Who you got? Only three for me this year. Rolen, Wagner and Helton. So nice to not see the POSs Bonds and Clemens on the ballot.

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DavidGee24
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Re: HOF thread

Post by DavidGee24 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:54 pm

Rolen has the WAR for inclusion even though probably nobody ever watched him thinking "There's a Hall Of Famer right there".

Wagner shouldn't be inducted, but the recent induction of guys like Lee Smith and Bruce Sutter give him a decent chance. That's just sad. I think that at the very least a relief pitcher should have had close to the career that Goose Gossage had to earn induction. There are a LOT of guys who had career WARS similar to Smith and Sutter that you'd say no way were they Hall Of Famers.

Speaking of no way, Helton. He was great for a while even with his home games in Denver, but he didn't quite sustain it long enough.

Captain 97
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Re: HOF thread

Post by Captain 97 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:54 pm

I think mid 60's in War is kind of my cutoff point for consideration.

I think Beltran and Rolen should be in with 70.1 bWAR a piece.

Manny Ramirez at 69.3 desrves it based on his career but he's a roider so no. A-Rod obviously same story.

Andrew Jones 62.7, Todd Helton, 61.8, Gary Sheffield 60.5, Bobby Abreu 60.5 are all kind of borderline guys Where I think you have to look at their other stats to make a call.

Jones hit .254 for his career and didn't even make it to 2000 hits. That's a hard pass

Helton hit .316 which is impressive even for Coors field and had 2500 hits. His 133 Career OPS+ ties him with hall of famers Earl Averil, Orlando Cepeda, Fred Clarke, Chick Hafey, Joe kelly, Jackie Robinson, Al Simmons, and Billy Williams. I would say hall of fame eventually but make him sweat it out like Edgar had to do.

Sheffield had 509 Career Home Runs 26th all time. The home run has been cheapened some but 500 is still a pretty lofty milestone. He hit a respectable .292 for his career which is better than Ken Griffey Jr. and his 2689 Hits is 70th all time and is pretty elite in this Day and age. I think I'd put him on my ballot.

Abreu with 2470 Hits and 288 Hr isn't doing it for me.

Big_Maple
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Re: HOF thread

Post by Big_Maple » Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:56 pm

When will Ichiro first appear on the ballot?

He has to be a unanimous, first-year-eligible HOFer...

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Re: HOF thread

Post by Sexymarinersfan » Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:00 pm

Helton, A. Jones, Kent, M. Ramirez, Rolen, Wagner, and A-Rod for me.

Captain 97
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Re: HOF thread

Post by Captain 97 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:14 pm

Hmm Jeff Kent?

Relatively contemporary players with a higher career WAR than Kent that are not in the Hall....

Robin Ventura
Will Clark
Johnny Damon
John Olerud
Keith Hernandez
Jim Edmonds
Chase Utley
Dwight Evans
Graig Nettles
Kenny Lofton

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D-train
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Re: HOF thread

Post by D-train » Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:31 pm

DavidGee24 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:54 pm
Rolen has the WAR for inclusion even though probably nobody ever watched him thinking "There's a Hall Of Famer right there".

Wagner shouldn't be inducted, but the recent induction of guys like Lee Smith and Bruce Sutter give him a decent chance. That's just sad. I think that at the very least a relief pitcher should have had close to the career that Goose Gossage had to earn induction. There are a LOT of guys who had career WARS similar to Smith and Sutter that you'd say no way were they Hall Of Famers.

Speaking of no way, Helton. He was great for a while even with his home games in Denver, but he didn't quite sustain it long enough.
Helton played 17 seasons and put up 62 WAR. Plenty and even though he played at Coors a .950+ OPS is huge.

I thought the same about Wagner but the guy was flat out lights out every season of his career other than when he was injured in 2000. Check it out. It blew my mind.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play ... bi02.shtml
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Re: HOF thread

Post by D-train » Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:33 pm

Captain 97 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:54 pm
I think mid 60's in War is kind of my cutoff point for consideration.

I think Beltran and Rolen should be in with 70.1 bWAR a piece.

Manny Ramirez at 69.3 desrves it based on his career but he's a roider so no. A-Rod obviously same story.

Andrew Jones 62.7, Todd Helton, 61.8, Gary Sheffield 60.5, Bobby Abreu 60.5 are all kind of borderline guys Where I think you have to look at their other stats to make a call.

Jones hit .254 for his career and didn't even make it to 2000 hits. That's a hard pass

Helton hit .316 which is impressive even for Coors field and had 2500 hits. His 133 Career OPS+ ties him with hall of famers Earl Averil, Orlando Cepeda, Fred Clarke, Chick Hafey, Joe kelly, Jackie Robinson, Al Simmons, and Billy Williams. I would say hall of fame eventually but make him sweat it out like Edgar had to do.

Sheffield had 509 Career Home Runs 26th all time. The home run has been cheapened some but 500 is still a pretty lofty milestone. He hit a respectable .292 for his career which is better than Ken Griffey Jr. and his 2689 Hits is 70th all time and is pretty elite in this Day and age. I think I'd put him on my ballot.

Abreu with 2470 Hits and 288 Hr isn't doing it for me.
Good analysis. Isn't Sheff in the Roids circle of darkness though?
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Re: HOF thread

Post by D-train » Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:38 pm

Big_Maple wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:56 pm
When will Ichiro first appear on the ballot?

He has to be a unanimous, first-year-eligible HOFer...
A lead off hitter ranked 588th in OBP behind greats like Carlos Guillen, Larry Gardner and Matt Stairs??? Guessing he will be a first ballot guy but some guys will have the sense to leave him off their ballot.

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Re: HOF thread

Post by Big_Maple » Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:50 pm

Yes, there's that. But I suspect his other stats trump OBP like a straight flush trumps an ace high:

10× All-Star (2001–2010)
AL MVP (2001)
AL Rookie of the Year (2001)
10× Gold Glove Award (2001–2010)
3× Silver Slugger Award (2001, 2007, 2009)
2× AL batting champion (2001, 2004)
AL stolen base leader (2001)
MLB record 262 hits, single season

Ichiro tallied 4,367 hits in his professional career, the most of any player in baseball history. He tallied 3,089 hits in Major League Baseball and 1,278 hits in Nippon Professional Baseball.

Ichiro is 1 of 7 MLB players in the 3,000-hit and 500-stolen-base clubs, along with Hall of Famers Ty Cobb, Eddie Collins, Honus Wagner, Lou Brock, Rickey Henderson & Paul Molitor.

Ichiro’s career .311 batting average leads all Major League players who accrued at least 5,000 plate appearances and debuted since 2000.

Ichiro was arguably the greatest leadoff hitter of his era, collecting 2,529 of his hits from the top spot, which ranked behind only Rickey Henderson (3,020) and Rose (2,924). However, compared to those two, Ichiro compiled a much higher batting average from the No. 1 hole, with a .323 clip, compared to Rose's .308 and Henderson's .280.

Ichiro won a Gold Glove Award in each of his first 10 seasons, joining Hall of Fame Reds catcher Johnny Bench as the only players to do so. His 10 Gold Gloves rank tied for third most among outfielders (with Ken Griffey Jr., Andruw Jones and Al Kaline), and no outfielder has won more than 12 (Roberto Clemente and Willie Mays).

(compiled all this from various sources...but they're impressive highlights that should guarantee no one leaves him off their ballots - should be an easy unanimous, IMHO)

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