Stone on the trade

User avatar
D-train
Posts: 68710
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:33 am
Location: Quincy, MA

Stone on the trade

Post by D-train » Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:54 am

I'm still laughing at all the polls on twitter asking which SS fans would want the most to a Mariner.... :lol: Can't believe people are still eating up what Jerry is selling after 7 years. :lol:
By Larry Stone
Seattle Times columnist
For those clamoring for Jerry Dipoto to make a big-ticket splash in the free-agent market, Friday’s trade with the Milwaukee Brewers was probably a disappointment by implication.

The biggest ticket of them all, outfielder Aaron Judge, was realistically above the Mariners’ pay grade from the start. The team has no need to dip into the crop of elite starting pitchers available in free agency, given their deep rotation and pool of young prospects knocking on the door.

And now, with second baseman Kolten Wong’s acquisition to fill the team’s middle-infield vacancy, it seems to close the door on the elite free agent shortstops, any one of whom would have fit so well onto Seattle’s roster. Of course, I’m talking about Carlos Correa, Xander Bogaerts, Trea Turner and Dansby Swanson.

If so, it means for the second year in a row, the Mariners will come up empty on a position loaded with free-agent talent that fit perfectly into their needs, at least on paper. Once again, Dipoto came out firmly from the start with the stance that the Mariners’ strong preference was to leave J.P. Crawford at shortstop and convince one of those shortstops to move to second base. It’s a curious (and dubious) stance — unless you’ve already become convinced that none of the current crop of shortstops is inclined to give Seattle serious consideration. Or that you don’t want to pay the huge dollars required to make it happen (from $150 million all the way up into the $300 million for Correa, most likely).

“I don’t think the second-base/shortstop thing really had anything to do with this move, or a lack of traction with those players in particular,” Mariners general manager Justin Hollander said Friday. “And I think Jerry hit on this: For the right player, we would have considered anything. We felt like this was the best thing that we can do for our team right now.”

In that context, the trade for Wong is another savvy one for Dipoto and Hollander, on the heels of their acquisition of slugging outfielder Teoscar Hernandez on Nov. 16. It fills the Mariners’ middle-infield need with a solid player whom they’ve long coveted, and it gives them a necessary left-handed bat for their lineup. Wong is coming off his best offensive year from an OPS-plus standpoint (118), though on the negative side his defensive numbers fell alarmingly, he’s a little long in the tooth at 32 and can be a free agent after the season.

Nevertheless, Wong should be an upgrade over the departed Adam Frazier. (Unless, of course, he suffers the same “National League to American League blues” that Frazier and Jesse Winker did.)

It was a trade that cleaned up two misses by the Mariners in previous transactions. They are sending Milwaukee Winker, who was a huge disappointment last season, offensively, defensively and chemistry wise, after being acquired from Cincinnati during spring training (the “throw-in” from the trade, Eugenio Suarez, turned the deal into a net positive).

Also going to the Brewers is infielder Abraham Toro, whom the Mariners felt had great untapped potential when they got him from the Astros in a massively ill-timed trade that cost them relievers Kendall Graveman and Rafael Montero. Toro, a 25-year-old switch-hitter, never tapped that potential, hitting a combined .213/.276/.342 in his year-plus with Seattle.

There is some risk of a bounce-back from Winker in his more familiar NL Central, and of a breakout by Toro, who showed intermittent flashes of the form that intrigued the Mariners in the first place. But in terms of incrementally strengthening the Mariners for 2023, it’s a good deal.

The question of whether the Mariners are going “all-in” for next season to a suitable degree, in light of their success in 2022, is a valid one. They ended the drought last year, won a playoff series, and gave the eventual champion Astros their toughest battle of the postseason. The overriding goal this offseason should be augmenting the roster so they can take the next step, or even the one after that into the World Series.

That’s still possible, even without the splashier names. It’s not about winning the winter news conference; it’s about overall improvement, and the Mariners have made two important steps in that regard. Speaking on Seattle Sports 710 AM this week, Dipoto pointed out that the Mariners have more obligations in 2024 and beyond than all but two teams, by virtue of their core of young talent that will hit arbitration, the substantial contract extensions given Julio Rodriguez, Luis Castillo and Crawford, and the Robbie Ray contract.

Like it or not, that plays into payroll considerations when it comes to long-term contracts. So does the possibility (probability?) that the Mariners are girding for a full-bore pursuit of Shohei Ohtani if and when he becomes a free agent after the 2023 season. They missed on Ohtani once but could be highly attractive to the two-way unicorn this time around.

Meanwhile, entering next week’s winter meetings, the Mariners still have a need for a corner outfielder/DH type player for next season who could be a significant addition to their lineup. The in-house candidates are Jarred Kelenic, Sam Haggerty and Taylor Trammell, but the Mariners are liable to go any number of ways here.

There’s the potential for a big trade; you can always count on Dipoto to make one move each winter no one saw coming. Free agent Brandon Nimmo is intriguing, though much of his value is predicated on playing center field, the position Rodriguez has locked down. They could also sign a high-upside, bounce-back candidate such as Michael Conforto or Cody Bellinger to a one-year “pillow” deal.

The Mariners definitely got better Friday with Kolten Wong’s arrival. With the attainable goals of increased postseason success next year and beyond, the onus is still on them to keep doing so.
dt

User avatar
D-train
Posts: 68710
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:33 am
Location: Quincy, MA

Re: Stone on the trade

Post by D-train » Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:25 am

So I liked Torres more that Wong because of age and upside and two years vs. one but Wong actually had a high OPS+ of 118 vs. 114. If Perry can get him back on track defensively we should be good to go.
dt

User avatar
Coeurd’Alene J
Posts: 5204
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 2:56 am

Re: Stone on the trade

Post by Coeurd’Alene J » Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:57 pm

D-train wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:25 am
So I liked Torres more that Wong because of age and upside and two years vs. one but Wong actually had a high OPS+ of 118 vs. 114. If Perry can get him back on track defensively we should be good to go.
And the happiness to not improve the Stankies by giving them a good prospect is a win

User avatar
D-train
Posts: 68710
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:33 am
Location: Quincy, MA

Re: Stone on the trade

Post by D-train » Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:07 pm

By Ryan Divish
Seattle Times staff reporter
With one somewhat expected transaction, the Mariners addressed their needs at second base while also cleaning up their roster in terms of positional fit and clubhouse chemistry.

With the start of the Major League Baseball Winter Meetings looming Monday in San Diego, the Mariners reached an agreement Friday with the Milwaukee Brewers on a trade that sends second baseman Kolten Wong and cash (reportedly $1.75 million) to Seattle in exchange for outfielder Jesse Winker and infielder Abraham Toro.

While the parameters of the deal were leaked to the media earlier, the trade wasn’t finalized until a few hours later upon final review of the players’ medical records. Winker underwent surgeries on his left knee and neck in the weeks after the 2022 regular season ended.

With the trade, Jerry Dipoto, the Mariners’ president of baseball operations, locked in his starting second baseman for the 2023 season — a player he tried to acquire before the 2021 season — while also moving on from Winker, who was an underachieving disappointment in his one season with Seattle.

“We have long coveted Kolten’s well-balanced, all-around game,” Dipoto said in a statement. “He also brings veteran leadership and a winning pedigree that will make a difference for us both on and off the field.”

Wong, who turned 32 on Oct. 10, posted a .251/.339/.430 slash line with 24 doubles, four triples, 15 homers, 47 RBI, 65 runs scored, 46 walks and 88 strikeouts in 134 games last season.

“We’ve been talking with Milwaukee basically since the end of the season,” general manager Justin Hollander said in a video conference. “I would say over the last week or so again we discussed the trade in a bunch of different forms, directly with Milwaukee, some discussion of multi-team trade, roping in a third and potentially fourth team. Over the last 72 hours, it really picked up steam to the point where we felt like we were close to a deal that we consummated this morning.”

In 10 big-league seasons, Wong has a career .261/.334/.398 slash line. He produced a 2.5 Fangraphs Wins Above Replacement (fWAR) for the Brewers while the Mariners got 0.4 (fWAR) from all of their second basemen combined in 2022. Wong won Gold Gloves at second base in 2019 and 2020, but had a down year defensively in 2022, registering a -1 defensive runs saved.

“I think he owned it at the end of the season,” Hollander said of the defensive struggles. “He didn’t have his kind of year, particularly with his hands, that matched his own expectations he set for himself. He brought it up to me on the phone. He’s prepared to be much better defensively next year. He’s always been an outstanding defender. We think the range is still plus, his arm is still well above average for the position and obviously we have a very good infield coach in Perry Hill as well.”

Wong and Hill already had discussions since being informed of the trade.

“He said he’s fired up to work with (Hill) and he’s fired up to be here,” Hollander said. “I think we’ll get the best version of Kolten. I don’t think that the plus defender just disappeared in six months. Everybody runs through hot and cold streaks whether it’s offensively or defensively. We view his defense as a big positive.”

Following the COVID-19 shortened season in 2020, the Mariners tried to sign Wong as a free agent. However, the Brewers outbid Seattle, signing him to a two-year, $18 million contract with a 2023 club option for $10 million. Per sources, then-Mariners president Kevin Mather wouldn’t allow Dipoto to make a counter offer, citing payroll budget.

Winker, who turned 29 in August, was acquired from the Reds, along with third baseman Eugenio Suarez, to be an impact hitter in the middle of the Mariners’ lineup. He was coming off an All-Star season in 2021, having posted a .305/.394/.556 slash line with 32 doubles, 24 homers and 71 RBI in 136 games.

But Winker couldn’t replicate that production with Seattle. He got off to a slow start and never really recovered. He finished the 2022 season with a .219/.344/.344 slash line with 15 doubles, 14 homers, 53 RBI, 84 walks and 103 strikeouts. Beyond his struggles at the plate, he was also abysmal in the field. Forced to play in left field more than the Mariners planned due to the struggles of Jarred Kelenic and the injury to Mitch Haniger, Winker was statistically one of the worst defensive outfielders in baseball.

“I told Jesse on the phone today when I spoke with him that he’s been a really good player for a long time,” Hollander said. “Obviously, he didn’t have his best season last year. It just never seemed to click for him. I fully expect he’ll go to Milwaukee and be a good player again. His track record is too good to think that he just stopped being an impact offensive player.”

The Mariners did not disclose that Winker was dealing with knee or neck issues throughout the season. He was placed on the 10-day injured list on the final day of the 2022 regular season, ending speculation that he wouldn’t make the Mariners’ postseason roster.

Dipoto announced that Winker underwent surgery on his left knee and was going to have neck surgery at a news conference three days after the Mariners were eliminated by the Astros in the American League Division Series.

Winker will make $8.25 million in 2023.

Toro, who will turn 26 on Dec. 20, posted a .185/.239/.324 slash line with 13 doubles, 10 homers and 35 RBI in 109 games. His early season struggles at the plate dropped him behind Dylan Moore and Sam Haggerty for bench player usage.
dt

User avatar
Bil522
Posts: 2146
Joined: Fri May 03, 2019 12:52 am

Re: Stone on the trade

Post by Bil522 » Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:46 pm

D-train wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:07 pm
By Ryan Divish
Seattle Times staff reporter
With one somewhat expected transaction, the Mariners addressed their needs at second base while also cleaning up their roster in terms of positional fit and clubhouse chemistry.

With the start of the Major League Baseball Winter Meetings looming Monday in San Diego, the Mariners reached an agreement Friday with the Milwaukee Brewers on a trade that sends second baseman Kolten Wong and cash (reportedly $1.75 million) to Seattle in exchange for outfielder Jesse Winker and infielder Abraham Toro.

While the parameters of the deal were leaked to the media earlier, the trade wasn’t finalized until a few hours later upon final review of the players’ medical records. Winker underwent surgeries on his left knee and neck in the weeks after the 2022 regular season ended.

With the trade, Jerry Dipoto, the Mariners’ president of baseball operations, locked in his starting second baseman for the 2023 season — a player he tried to acquire before the 2021 season — while also moving on from Winker, who was an underachieving disappointment in his one season with Seattle.

“We have long coveted Kolten’s well-balanced, all-around game,” Dipoto said in a statement. “He also brings veteran leadership and a winning pedigree that will make a difference for us both on and off the field.”

Wong, who turned 32 on Oct. 10, posted a .251/.339/.430 slash line with 24 doubles, four triples, 15 homers, 47 RBI, 65 runs scored, 46 walks and 88 strikeouts in 134 games last season.

“We’ve been talking with Milwaukee basically since the end of the season,” general manager Justin Hollander said in a video conference. “I would say over the last week or so again we discussed the trade in a bunch of different forms, directly with Milwaukee, some discussion of multi-team trade, roping in a third and potentially fourth team. Over the last 72 hours, it really picked up steam to the point where we felt like we were close to a deal that we consummated this morning.”

In 10 big-league seasons, Wong has a career .261/.334/.398 slash line. He produced a 2.5 Fangraphs Wins Above Replacement (fWAR) for the Brewers while the Mariners got 0.4 (fWAR) from all of their second basemen combined in 2022. Wong won Gold Gloves at second base in 2019 and 2020, but had a down year defensively in 2022, registering a -1 defensive runs saved.

“I think he owned it at the end of the season,” Hollander said of the defensive struggles. “He didn’t have his kind of year, particularly with his hands, that matched his own expectations he set for himself. He brought it up to me on the phone. He’s prepared to be much better defensively next year. He’s always been an outstanding defender. We think the range is still plus, his arm is still well above average for the position and obviously we have a very good infield coach in Perry Hill as well.”

Wong and Hill already had discussions since being informed of the trade.

“He said he’s fired up to work with (Hill) and he’s fired up to be here,” Hollander said. “I think we’ll get the best version of Kolten. I don’t think that the plus defender just disappeared in six months. Everybody runs through hot and cold streaks whether it’s offensively or defensively. We view his defense as a big positive.”

Following the COVID-19 shortened season in 2020, the Mariners tried to sign Wong as a free agent. However, the Brewers outbid Seattle, signing him to a two-year, $18 million contract with a 2023 club option for $10 million. Per sources, then-Mariners president Kevin Mather wouldn’t allow Dipoto to make a counter offer, citing payroll budget.

Winker, who turned 29 in August, was acquired from the Reds, along with third baseman Eugenio Suarez, to be an impact hitter in the middle of the Mariners’ lineup. He was coming off an All-Star season in 2021, having posted a .305/.394/.556 slash line with 32 doubles, 24 homers and 71 RBI in 136 games.

But Winker couldn’t replicate that production with Seattle. He got off to a slow start and never really recovered. He finished the 2022 season with a .219/.344/.344 slash line with 15 doubles, 14 homers, 53 RBI, 84 walks and 103 strikeouts. Beyond his struggles at the plate, he was also abysmal in the field. Forced to play in left field more than the Mariners planned due to the struggles of Jarred Kelenic and the injury to Mitch Haniger, Winker was statistically one of the worst defensive outfielders in baseball.

“I told Jesse on the phone today when I spoke with him that he’s been a really good player for a long time,” Hollander said. “Obviously, he didn’t have his best season last year. It just never seemed to click for him. I fully expect he’ll go to Milwaukee and be a good player again. His track record is too good to think that he just stopped being an impact offensive player.”

The Mariners did not disclose that Winker was dealing with knee or neck issues throughout the season. He was placed on the 10-day injured list on the final day of the 2022 regular season, ending speculation that he wouldn’t make the Mariners’ postseason roster.

Dipoto announced that Winker underwent surgery on his left knee and was going to have neck surgery at a news conference three days after the Mariners were eliminated by the Astros in the American League Division Series.

Winker will make $8.25 million in 2023.

Toro, who will turn 26 on Dec. 20, posted a .185/.239/.324 slash line with 13 doubles, 10 homers and 35 RBI in 109 games. His early season struggles at the plate dropped him behind Dylan Moore and Sam Haggerty for bench player usage.
I wonder where Kevin Mather is these days....

User avatar
D-train
Posts: 68710
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:33 am
Location: Quincy, MA

Re: Stone on the trade

Post by D-train » Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:51 pm

I am sure he is enjoying retirement on some tropical island like Howard Sprague.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiGp5abY6Vs
dt

Vogelbomb
Posts: 1879
Joined: Sun May 05, 2019 9:25 pm

Re: Stone on the trade

Post by Vogelbomb » Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:53 pm

Commenting on this thread since the other is already 11 pages deep...

So Winker over last 900 PAs ('21. 22) is a avg 124 ops+ player even with massive drop in SEA while Wong is 114 ops+ player over same period. We can all be glad to be rid of Winker's poor performance but to be frank, he's a better player than Wong with a better track record in which only Harper and Soto were better from the left side in '21.

The point here is we got a shit return for a valuable player after giving up quite the haul to land him in the first place. The Brewers are obviously counting on Winker returning to his best and full health.

I don't see why this board is full of positive reviews. This was not a disaster but certainly a head scratcher. And the team seems to be passing on any and all other middle infield improvements for Wong. So that's another negative in my book.

That said, the team can still pivot, spin Wong off to another team or finally move on from JP. So I will hold out hope

User avatar
D-train
Posts: 68710
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:33 am
Location: Quincy, MA

Re: Stone on the trade

Post by D-train » Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:11 pm

Vogelbomb wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:53 pm
Commenting on this thread since the other is already 11 pages deep...

So Winker over last 900 PAs ('21. 22) is a avg 124 ops+ player even with massive drop in SEA while Wong is 114 ops+ player over same period. We can all be glad to be rid of Winker's poor performance but to be frank, he's a better player than Wong with a better track record in which only Harper and Soto were better from the left side in '21.

The point here is we got a shit return for a valuable player after giving up quite the haul to land him in the first place. The Brewers are obviously counting on Winker returning to his best and full health.

I don't see why this board is full of positive reviews. This was not a disaster but certainly a head scratcher. And the team seems to be passing on any and all other middle infield improvements for Wong. So that's another negative in my book.

That said, the team can still pivot, spin Wong off to another team or finally move on from JP. So I will hold out hope
Can't wait for the podcast tomorrow brother. I like it IF and only if the best is yet to come.
dt

User avatar
Coeurd’Alene J
Posts: 5204
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 2:56 am

Re: Stone on the trade

Post by Coeurd’Alene J » Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:30 pm

Vogelbomb wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:53 pm
Commenting on this thread since the other is already 11 pages deep...

So Winker over last 900 PAs ('21. 22) is a avg 124 ops+ player even with massive drop in SEA while Wong is 114 ops+ player over same period. We can all be glad to be rid of Winker's poor performance but to be frank, he's a better player than Wong with a better track record in which only Harper and Soto were better from the left side in '21.

The point here is we got a shit return for a valuable player after giving up quite the haul to land him in the first place. The Brewers are obviously counting on Winker returning to his best and full health.

I don't see why this board is full of positive reviews. This was not a disaster but certainly a head scratcher. And the team seems to be passing on any and all other middle infield improvements for Wong. So that's another negative in my book.

That said, the team can still pivot, spin Wong off to another team or finally move on from JP. So I will hold out hope
You should be thrilled Kelenic wasn’t thrown in

User avatar
D-train
Posts: 68710
Joined: Mon Apr 29, 2019 1:33 am
Location: Quincy, MA

Re: Stone on the trade

Post by D-train » Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:40 pm

Coeurd’Alene J wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 11:30 pm
Vogelbomb wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 10:53 pm
Commenting on this thread since the other is already 11 pages deep...

So Winker over last 900 PAs ('21. 22) is a avg 124 ops+ player even with massive drop in SEA while Wong is 114 ops+ player over same period. We can all be glad to be rid of Winker's poor performance but to be frank, he's a better player than Wong with a better track record in which only Harper and Soto were better from the left side in '21.

The point here is we got a shit return for a valuable player after giving up quite the haul to land him in the first place. The Brewers are obviously counting on Winker returning to his best and full health.

I don't see why this board is full of positive reviews. This was not a disaster but certainly a head scratcher. And the team seems to be passing on any and all other middle infield improvements for Wong. So that's another negative in my book.

That said, the team can still pivot, spin Wong off to another team or finally move on from JP. So I will hold out hope
You should be thrilled Kelenic wasn’t thrown in
:lol:
dt

Post Reply