Who do the Mocks have us taking at #5 right now

Michael K.
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Re: Who do the Mocks have us taking at #5 right now

Post by Michael K. » Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:21 am

I know this is dating myself, but think back to when Dick LeBeau ran that 3 - 4 with the Steelers. Didn't Kevin Green and Woodley play outside at the same time? Joey Porter played OLB for the Steelers. Those are Edge guys in a 3 - 4. Bruce Irvin types. A DE in a 4 - 3 is a Bruce Smith type. IMO, you would not mistake a DE for an OLB. That is the difference between Edge and DE. Some of these guys, like Collier, get labeled as an Edge and it makes me laugh. Again, I am over simplifying it, but look at our 4 - 3 sack guys in the past. Clemons, Bennett, Avril....they were 4 - 3 DEs. Irvin played WLB, before becoming a Rush End in the Nascar package. The reason is because he was an Edge, not a 4 - 3 DE.

Edit: It wasn't Woodley with Kevin Greene, pretty sure it was Greg Lloyd.
Last edited by Michael K. on Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Cascade Kid
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Re: Who do the Mocks have us taking at #5 right now

Post by Cascade Kid » Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:25 am

SeattleAddict wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 11:34 pm
D-train wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:20 pm


Curious how playing edge is different in a 4-3 vs. 3-4. Why is it significant that there are one or 2 Tackles between you and the other Edge. I plead total ignorance and am just trying to understand. Thanks.
There are subtleties that I don't pretend to understand, but I'll try to explain my limited understanding of it in a poorly thought-out, awkward and somewhat incorrect way:

in a 4-3, you have something like: EDGE- DT - DT - EDGE (two fast guys that rush from either side, plus two big guys clogging the middle)
in a 3-4, it's more like: EDGE - Gigantic immovable NT (like Woods) - hybrid DT/DE that is bigger than a DE, not quite as big as NT (like Harris or Collier), then one OLB that sometimes rushes, sometimes covers (Nwosu).

the 3-4 plays much the same, but gives more flexibility.

So, a 4-3 edge will often be a pass rush specialist and set the edge, so can often be smaller and quicker (not necessarily), and are for the most part interchangeable with one another (again, subtleties here). With a 3-4, you have one guy that is like a 4-3 DE, and the other guy is more of a hybrid that rushes but also stuffs the run. Murphy has the body for this, but hasn't played this position, so he could be a HR or a bust if made to change.

The Seahawks have Irvin, Mafe and Taylor, that are listed as OLBs I think, but play opposite Nwosu, effectively the DE, and tried to play Poona/Jefferson/Harris as the hybrid (my term for descriptive purposes, not an actual thing).
Clemson runs a 3-4. Murphy is a DE in this scheme, but he will also lineup on the edge in hybrid formations. He's 3-4 all the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kExxBD4DszI&t=208s

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Re: Who do the Mocks have us taking at #5 right now

Post by SeattleAddict » Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:38 am

Cascade Kid wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:25 am


Clemson runs a 3-4. Murphy is a DE in this scheme, but he will also lineup on the edge in hybrid formations. He's 3-4 all the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kExxBD4DszI&t=208s
NO, they do not. They run a 4-3, but like ALL defenses, sometimes will employ a 3-4 or 4-2-5. They are lined up in 4-3 in nearly every play in the very video you shared, but this is also easily checked by looking at their depth charts - I'll help you: https://www.ourlads.com/ncaa-football-d ... mson/90314

Note that they have TWO starting DEs a NT and DT, and only 3 LBs.

You can make an argument that Murphy can play a 3-4 end, but to say he is "3-4 all the way" is 100% wrong.

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Cascade Kid
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Re: Who do the Mocks have us taking at #5 right now

Post by Cascade Kid » Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:45 am

SeattleAddict wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:38 am
Cascade Kid wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:25 am


Clemson runs a 3-4. Murphy is a DE in this scheme, but he will also lineup on the edge in hybrid formations. He's 3-4 all the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kExxBD4DszI&t=208s
NO, they do not. They run a 4-3, but like ALL defenses, sometimes will employ a 3-4 or 4-2-5. They are lined up in 4-3 in nearly every play in the very video you shared, but this is also easily checked by looking at their depth charts - I'll help you: https://www.ourlads.com/ncaa-football-d ... mson/90314

Note that they have TWO starting DEs a NT and DT, and only 3 LBs.

You can make an argument that Murphy can play a 3-4 end, but to say he is "3-4 all the way" is 100% wrong.
They play a considerable amount of 3-4.

And if you feel that you have grounds for making the statement that I'm wrong then you should also state why. Please, let me learn something I don't see, and I hope it's good.

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Cascade Kid
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Re: Who do the Mocks have us taking at #5 right now

Post by Cascade Kid » Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:05 am

SeattleAddict wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 1:38 am
Cascade Kid wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:25 am


Clemson runs a 3-4. Murphy is a DE in this scheme, but he will also lineup on the edge in hybrid formations. He's 3-4 all the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kExxBD4DszI&t=208s
NO, they do not. They run a 4-3, but like ALL defenses, sometimes will employ a 3-4 or 4-2-5. They are lined up in 4-3 in nearly every play in the very video you shared, but this is also easily checked by looking at their depth charts - I'll help you: https://www.ourlads.com/ncaa-football-d ... mson/90314

Note that they have TWO starting DEs a NT and DT, and only 3 LBs.

You can make an argument that Murphy can play a 3-4 end, but to say he is "3-4 all the way" is 100% wrong.
I am seeing a lot of 3-4 and 4-3. I did read Goodwin switched from a 3-3-5 base to a 4-3 to allow youth to grow. But this is likely why he runs a fair number of 3 DL schemes. If you watch the Murphy highlight reel about half of those pass rushes and TFLs come in 3 DL sets.

Also, Murphy just turned 21 years old, that guy is still filling out. Take a look at this sophmore highlights and then his Junior hightlights and you'll see the size he's gained. Very powerful player with length, and the speed is a great plus. This guy will be plenty useful playing down into the 4i on the end and can bring chaos. But who knows, everyone is a prospect at the end of the day.

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Re: Who do the Mocks have us taking at #5 right now

Post by D-train » Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:48 pm

Michael K. wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:41 pm
D-train wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:20 pm

Curious how playing edge is different in a 4-3 vs. 3-4. Why is it significant that there are one or 2 Tackles between you and the other Edge. I plead total ignorance and am just trying to understand. Thanks.
I am far from an expert, but a guy who plays "Edge" in college is usually a 3 - 4 OLB. Think Taylor or Irvin. Be interesting to see what they think of the kid from Syracuse that was on IR all year. Robinson...Alton or Aldon, can't remember.

Anyway, think Poona Ford. Was a DT in a 4 - 3 and an DE in a 3 - 4. BUT, he is not an Edge. That is how I interpret it. The kid from Bama might be able to play both DE and OLB in a 3 - 4, and I am sure there are some guys like that. But, seriously? Don't most of them become pass rushers on 2nd and 3rd down anyway unless they play ILB? Obviously that is an over generalization...I understand that those guys aren't rushing all the time, but still.
Got it. Makes sense. Thanks.
dt

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Re: Who do the Mocks have us taking at #5 right now

Post by Sexymarinersfan » Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:24 pm

D-train wrote:
Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:48 pm
Michael K. wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:41 pm
D-train wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:20 pm

Curious how playing edge is different in a 4-3 vs. 3-4. Why is it significant that there are one or 2 Tackles between you and the other Edge. I plead total ignorance and am just trying to understand. Thanks.
I am far from an expert, but a guy who plays "Edge" in college is usually a 3 - 4 OLB. Think Taylor or Irvin. Be interesting to see what they think of the kid from Syracuse that was on IR all year. Robinson...Alton or Aldon, can't remember.

Anyway, think Poona Ford. Was a DT in a 4 - 3 and an DE in a 3 - 4. BUT, he is not an Edge. That is how I interpret it. The kid from Bama might be able to play both DE and OLB in a 3 - 4, and I am sure there are some guys like that. But, seriously? Don't most of them become pass rushers on 2nd and 3rd down anyway unless they play ILB? Obviously that is an over generalization...I understand that those guys aren't rushing all the time, but still.
Got it. Makes sense. Thanks.
Interesting article from Rob Staton. Just love what he puts out!

http://seahawksdraftblog.com/

Michael K.
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Re: Who do the Mocks have us taking at #5 right now

Post by Michael K. » Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:55 pm

Wow, is this guy for real? Didn't they use a pretty good draft pick on Josh Allen?

I can remember a time when 9 Wins was a high water mark for them. Cincy had just kicked their ass, more than likely would have in week 17,and THAT is what that Mother Fucker says? I agree with Parsons, and have said it for some time. BUT, it's going to take one QB saying he doesn't need to be the highest paid player every time he signs a deal to change this, and that aint happening. But still, to make THAT comment? What a douce.
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Michael K.
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Re: Who do the Mocks have us taking at #5 right now

Post by Michael K. » Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:00 pm

Then at #20 — you can go and add a top defensive prospect.

That could be Keion White — the Georgia Tech defensive lineman who has none of the character or conditioning baggage of Jalen Carter, plays his heart out every game, has outstanding physical traits and is expected to be one of the stars of the combine and Senior Bowl.

It could be Drew Sanders — a big, physical, quick linebacker who constantly plays in attack mode and has shown an ability to rush the passer on third down, tallying 9.5 sacks in 2022.

It could be Calijah Kancey — the closest thing to Aaron Donald since Aaron Donald, with his sensational pass-rushing ability and outstanding physical profile. Kancey is finally getting some national media attention but as regulars know, we’ve been talking about him for a long time.

There’s depth on the D-line and the #20-60 range will provide options and value. It’s not #5 or bust for the defensive front seven in this class. It certainly will be at quarterback, short of a mid-round flier on Dorian Thompson-Robinson (who I like).

The alternative plan — based on Kiper’s mock — is probably to pay Geno Smith a handsome contract, then be forced to rely on draft picks to improve the defense. You might end up taking a chance on Tyree Wilson at #5.

The thing is — it’s funny how Wilson is celebrated for his physical traits and his inconsistent play, age and injury situation is forgotten. With Levis — the opposite is true. Hardly anyone talks about his positives or upside.
Very interesting. A lot of this was discussed on a Brock and Salk podcast I listened to last night. The guy they had on was a draft expert, and was very high on Sanders. Called him a "run and hit" guy and said he was a difference maker. Man, another non pass rushing LB in the 1st round? Maybe Brooks will end up being the man, but I was sure under impressed with his play last year. How do you play ILB on a defense that was historically bad against the run, get hurt and watch it get BETTER, and consider yourself a playmaker?

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Re: Who do the Mocks have us taking at #5 right now

Post by D-train » Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:24 pm

Here is the full article. This guy loves Wilson too. A lot of people do. And Drew Sanders looks like a good option. I also like Gonzales for CB if he promises to disavow who he played for in college.

https://sports.mynorthwest.com/1730628/ ... -seahawks/
dt

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