Cliff Avril talks D-Line

auroraave
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Re: Cliff Avril talks D-Line

Post by auroraave » Fri May 12, 2023 2:14 pm

D-train wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 10:33 am
Yeah NTs are almost never considered pass rushers for obvious reasons but it isn't like every single running play is either right up the middle or a sweep. The DEs have to be good run stoppers too for runs at or near them and guessing they sucked last year.
What is missed is it's not about 'stopping the run' it is about assignment. Yes, you want make the tackles, and far too many people obsess on these statistics because it is the low hanging fruit, like sacks and qb pressure - all nice fantasy football stuff, but the reality on the field is you have an assignment - often the lineman's job (especially interior if they can create a double team situation) is to absorb blockers and even move them so the linebackers can attack the gaps and make the tackles. This is the fundamental problem I see when talking football - people talk about stats while missing it's about assignment fulfilment. If you handle your assignment and win that battle you generally win the play. Every down lineman's assignment on every play is not necessarily to make the tackle or get the sack - it's to put the LB's or edge rushers in position to do so. Last year the 'read and attack" failed - the split second lost in that scheme by the defense gave opposing offenses a huge advantage

This is why I reject PFF - they simply do not account for that because they do not know the assignment. Is it a stunt, a blitz? Statistics do not necessarily show a players true value - if a dlineman is handling his assignments correctly and others are making the tackles due to his assignment fulfillment - he ends up with 'less stats' when in reality he is just as responsible for the tackle, pressure, etc. the statistic has to land on someone for convenience so blowhards like cowherd can pretend to know what they are talking about (they don't), but it's not necessarily representative of the whole truth.

Adding another body is expected - I assume JS will look hard for interior guys getting cut - maybe even via a trade - and just like the first roster turnover in 2011 - they will add as many bodies as possible until they find the right combination.

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D-train
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Re: Cliff Avril talks D-Line

Post by D-train » Fri May 12, 2023 2:26 pm

auroraave wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 2:14 pm
D-train wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 10:33 am
Yeah NTs are almost never considered pass rushers for obvious reasons but it isn't like every single running play is either right up the middle or a sweep. The DEs have to be good run stoppers too for runs at or near them and guessing they sucked last year.
What is missed is it's not about 'stopping the run' it is about assignment. Yes, you want make the tackles, and far too many people obsess on these statistics because it is the low hanging fruit, like sacks and qb pressure - all nice fantasy football stuff, but the reality on the field is you have an assignment - often the lineman's job (especially interior if they can create a double team situation) is to absorb blockers and even move them so the linebackers can attack the gaps and make the tackles. This is the fundamental problem I see when talking football - people talk about stats while missing it's about assignment fulfilment. If you handle your assignment and win that battle you generally win the play. Every down lineman's assignment on every play is not necessarily to make the tackle or get the sack - it's to put the LB's or edge rushers in position to do so. Last year the 'read and attack" failed - the split second lost in that scheme by the defense gave opposing offenses a huge advantage

This is why I reject PFF - they simply do not account for that because they do not know the assignment. Is it a stunt, a blitz? Statistics do not necessarily show a players true value - if a dlineman is handling his assignments correctly and others are making the tackles due to his assignment fulfillment - he ends up with 'less stats' when in reality he is just as responsible for the tackle, pressure, etc. the statistic has to land on someone for convenience so blowhards like cowherd can pretend to know what they are talking about (they don't), but it's not necessarily representative of the whole truth.

Adding another body is expected - I assume JS will look hard for interior guys getting cut - maybe even via a trade - and just like the first roster turnover in 2011 - they will add as many bodies as possible until they find the right combination.
Yeah that is why I said run stopper instead of run tackler....
dt

Michael K.
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Re: Cliff Avril talks D-Line

Post by Michael K. » Fri May 12, 2023 2:33 pm

OK, I'll admit....I read this and thought he was the guy taken #1 by the Texans over Reggie Bush. Not the same guy though.

auroraave
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Re: Cliff Avril talks D-Line

Post by auroraave » Fri May 12, 2023 3:07 pm

D-train wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 2:26 pm
auroraave wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 2:14 pm
D-train wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 10:33 am
Yeah NTs are almost never considered pass rushers for obvious reasons but it isn't like every single running play is either right up the middle or a sweep. The DEs have to be good run stoppers too for runs at or near them and guessing they sucked last year.
What is missed is it's not about 'stopping the run' it is about assignment. Yes, you want make the tackles, and far too many people obsess on these statistics because it is the low hanging fruit, like sacks and qb pressure - all nice fantasy football stuff, but the reality on the field is you have an assignment - often the lineman's job (especially interior if they can create a double team situation) is to absorb blockers and even move them so the linebackers can attack the gaps and make the tackles. This is the fundamental problem I see when talking football - people talk about stats while missing it's about assignment fulfilment. If you handle your assignment and win that battle you generally win the play. Every down lineman's assignment on every play is not necessarily to make the tackle or get the sack - it's to put the LB's or edge rushers in position to do so. Last year the 'read and attack" failed - the split second lost in that scheme by the defense gave opposing offenses a huge advantage

This is why I reject PFF - they simply do not account for that because they do not know the assignment. Is it a stunt, a blitz? Statistics do not necessarily show a players true value - if a dlineman is handling his assignments correctly and others are making the tackles due to his assignment fulfillment - he ends up with 'less stats' when in reality he is just as responsible for the tackle, pressure, etc. the statistic has to land on someone for convenience so blowhards like cowherd can pretend to know what they are talking about (they don't), but it's not necessarily representative of the whole truth.

Adding another body is expected - I assume JS will look hard for interior guys getting cut - maybe even via a trade - and just like the first roster turnover in 2011 - they will add as many bodies as possible until they find the right combination.
Yeah that is why I said run stopper instead of run tackler....
Both can also be true. Seems like guys like bennett and avril were absolute beasts all the way around. Man, that dline was insane. I think they had mebane and clemmons anchoring the middle. Probably had a huge impact on avril and bennett's successes. looking back, it's almost unfair. Then that LB room with KJ and Bobby to clean up... and THEN the LOB. I miss that defense. this defense isn't far off from being pretty reasonable - top half of the league at least.

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Donn Beach
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Re: Cliff Avril talks D-Line

Post by Donn Beach » Fri May 12, 2023 3:27 pm

So me being me, I was curious to get PFF side of it. I mean it's not like they can be obvious to the criticism. So here it is, admitting it doesn't work. One of the best tackles in the league is some sort of an outlier. If you can't analyze defense linemen accurately then how valuable is your system?

Undoubtedly if Daron Payne was a Seahawk there be a debate here that he was overrated because PFF graded him so low. And PFF is like the gospel now. That's the thing, it's not analytical, it's nowhere close to what's being produced on the baseball side.
According to PFF’s Senior Data Analyst Nick Akridge, Payne’s below-average grade of 59.2 this season does not match his production. “I think Daron Payne is severely underrated in our system; I get asked about it all the time.”

“A lot of times in what I talked about with him, his job is kind of a nose tackle - - to eat up blocks. So a lot of times when you see him or the defense playing well, you see [Cole] Holcomb or [Jamin] Davis being able to shoot their gaps because Payne is eating blocks. So for our system, if you are taking on a double-team and just holding the double-team, you are a zero [grade] for us.” Akridge has argued to PFF that stalemating double teams should be graded positively, but their grading system has not adjusted for that.

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D-train
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Re: Cliff Avril talks D-Line

Post by D-train » Fri May 12, 2023 4:16 pm

Michael K. wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 2:33 pm
OK, I'll admit....I read this and thought he was the guy taken #1 by the Texans over Reggie Bush. Not the same guy though.
lol Reggie is almost 40 yo but prob looks about 55 you after enduring Kim Kardashians ass for a couple years.
dt

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D-train
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Re: Cliff Avril talks D-Line

Post by D-train » Fri May 12, 2023 4:17 pm

Donn Beach wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 3:27 pm
So me being me, I was curious to get PFF side of it. I mean it's not like they can be obvious to the criticism. So here it is, admitting it doesn't work. One of the best tackles in the league is some sort of an outlier. If you can't analyze defense linemen accurately then how valuable is your system?

Undoubtedly if Daron Payne was a Seahawk there be a debate here that he was overrated because PFF graded him so low. And PFF is like the gospel now. That's the thing, it's not analytical, it's nowhere close to what's being produced on the baseball side.
According to PFF’s Senior Data Analyst Nick Akridge, Payne’s below-average grade of 59.2 this season does not match his production. “I think Daron Payne is severely underrated in our system; I get asked about it all the time.”

“A lot of times in what I talked about with him, his job is kind of a nose tackle - - to eat up blocks. So a lot of times when you see him or the defense playing well, you see [Cole] Holcomb or [Jamin] Davis being able to shoot their gaps because Payne is eating blocks. So for our system, if you are taking on a double-team and just holding the double-team, you are a zero [grade] for us.” Akridge has argued to PFF that stalemating double teams should be graded positively, but their grading system has not adjusted for that.
Wow, what an obvious and easily correctable flaw. Almost as bad as Jerry sticking with his inane DH policy for years.
dt

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douche
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Re: Cliff Avril talks D-Line

Post by douche » Fri May 12, 2023 4:23 pm

D-train wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 2:26 pm
Yeah that is why I said run stopper instead of run tackler....
A run stopper would be nice, considering the team already has a really good run tackler. I think he wears number 54. :D

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Sibelius Hindemith
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Re: Cliff Avril talks D-Line

Post by Sibelius Hindemith » Fri May 12, 2023 4:53 pm

So PFF's senior data analyst doesn't have enough pull to implement a small change in their grading criteria? Who's making the decisions there, seems pretty dysfunctional.

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D-train
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Re: Cliff Avril talks D-Line

Post by D-train » Fri May 12, 2023 5:51 pm

Sibelius Hindemith wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 4:53 pm
So PFF's senior data analyst doesn't have enough pull to implement a small change in their grading criteria? Who's making the decisions there, seems pretty dysfunctional.
Can go back to the Jerry analogy there too. He doesn't have enough pull to DFA Pollock and bring up Ford obviously.
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