Seattle is Lost

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Sibelius Hindemith
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Re: Seattle is Lost

Post by Sibelius Hindemith » Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:00 pm

gil wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:27 pm
So in summary ...

Changing global temperatures are caused by a lot of things, and carbon dioxide concentration is not a major cause of increased temperatures.
Just to be clear, that isn't my view. I think it's unknown how much of an impact CO2 levels have on temperatures. There have been episodes of volcanoes pumping massive amounts of it into the atmosphere and i don't know what the short term impact of that was, but over the long term it is the orbital and solar fluctuations that have caused the cycles of ice ages and warm periods.
gil wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:27 pm
But if increased carbon dioxide contributes to increased temperatures, human activity didn't do it.

And even if human activity did do it, then it's China's fault.

:?:
I don't think anyone disputes that human actvity has caused CO2 levels to go up. Since that became widely understood, who has done more to address the situation, Western industrialized nations or "developing" nations such as China and India? And what have nations like Brazil and Malaysia done to address large-scale deforestation which is known to have an impact on climate patterns? I don't care about assigning blame, what matters is getting the nations that are contributing the most to the problem currently to do their part in making any necessary sacrifices to address it.

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Sibelius Hindemith
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Re: Seattle is Lost

Post by Sibelius Hindemith » Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:18 pm

gil wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:42 pm
By the way, here is the 800,000 year estimates of carbon dioxide concentration. You can see the decreasing CO2 during the period (100,000 years ago to 10,000 years ago) when there were Ice Ages. And of course, we are now at higher CO2 levels than any time in 800,000 years.
Yes, the graphs of CO2 levels and global temperatures completely overlap, but what would cause CO2 levels to go down during an ice age assuming volcanic activity does not follow a cycle that corresponds to orbital patterns of the earth (as the ice ages do)? The answer seems to be that temperature changes impact CO2 levels to some degree. So , again, there's a correlation but the causality is not understood very well.

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gil
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Re: Seattle is Lost

Post by gil » Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:29 pm

Sibelius Hindemith wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:00 pm
gil wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:27 pm
So in summary ...

Changing global temperatures are caused by a lot of things, and carbon dioxide concentration is not a major cause of increased temperatures.
Just to be clear, that isn't my view. I think it's unknown how much of an impact CO2 levels have on temperatures. There have been episodes of volcanoes pumping massive amounts of it into the atmosphere and i don't know what the short term impact of that was, but over the long term it is the orbital and solar fluctuations that have caused the cycles of ice ages and warm periods.
gil wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:27 pm
But if increased carbon dioxide contributes to increased temperatures, human activity didn't do it.

And even if human activity did do it, then it's China's fault.

:?:
I don't think anyone disputes that human actvity has caused CO2 levels to go up. Since that became widely understood, who has done more to address the situation, Western industrialized nations or "developing" nations such as China and India? And what have nations like Brazil and Malaysia done to address large-scale deforestation which is known to have an impact on climate patterns? I don't care about assigning blame, what matters is getting the nations that are contributing the most to the problem currently to do their part in making any necessary sacrifices to address it.
Yes, I agree. I get pushback from people who say that Western nations grew rich by turning fossil fuels, and now developing nations should not be prevented from doing the same thing. In total (since the beginning of the industrial revolution), European nations had the most emissions until about 100 years ago, and now the United States is the highest. China has about 1/2 the total (since the beginning of the industrial revolution) emissions that the US does.

I think what we should be committing to is technologies that will allow growth with less fossil fuel use. China is doing this, Germany is doing this, and I hope the US gets it together and leads the world in this.

I will point out that while China has the most emissions currently (by a lot!), their per capita emissions are lower than the US, Canada, Saudi Arabia, and some others. Having 18% (I think that is close) of the world's population makes your absolute numbers higher.

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Sibelius Hindemith
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Re: Seattle is Lost

Post by Sibelius Hindemith » Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:06 pm

China has had extemely lax regulations on industrial waste and general pollution in their feverish push to dominate the rest of the world. While overpopulation contributes to that, it is mainly a matter of their government not caring about anything besides economic growth.

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ddraig
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Re: Seattle is Lost

Post by ddraig » Thu Jul 15, 2021 4:01 am

Sorry, guys, but China contributes 30% of the world's pollution. Roughly doubling the combined output of pollution from the next four major polluters. Those countries are the U.S. India, Russia, and Japan. The majority of the pollution in China is from coal fired energy plants. They use more soft coal than the U.S., which uses hard coal, and they continue to build coal fired plants at an accelerated rate. Air quality red alerts in Beijing are nearly constant.

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bpj
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Re: Seattle is Lost

Post by bpj » Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:08 am

gil wrote:
Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:54 pm
bpj wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:56 pm
The Earth has a different tilt than it did 30 years ago.
I did not know this and could not find a reference. Can you post a reference to this? Thanks!
Saw this today and it reminded me of this conversation from last year.

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ddraig
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Re: Seattle is Lost

Post by ddraig » Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:23 pm

The most severe climate change in the past has been from major volcanic eruptions. These caused "nuclear winters" which lasted for years. More people die from "nuclear winters" than from "global warming." In fact, human populations generally do well when the Global Average Temperatures are higher than they are today.

During the Medieval Warming Period, wine grapes were grown in Scandinavia and wheat grown in the Russian north of where it had previously been possible. Want to know why we call Greenland by that name? Because during this warming period, crops and domesticated animals flourished there. Then entered the "Little Ice Age." Living in Greenland became untenable. The settlements died out and never recovered. Volcanic eruptions during that time threw much dust into the atmosphere.

Sadly, the Little Ice Age declined in the 18th and 19th Centuries which corresponded to the Industrial Revolution. Thus increased human industrial activity gets tarred and feathered for "Global Warming" when in actuality the real culprit has been a decrease in major volcanic activity. Coincidentally, recent studies of global temps on other planets in our Solar System show an increase of warming on our neighbors as well. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I've notices an extreme lack of Venusian SUV's, farting cows on Mars, and coal fired electrical plants on Uranus. Has increased industrial output here on earth contributed to "Global Warming." Probably, but not significantly. Sun activity and volcanic eruptions seem to point away from human activity as being the major cause of "global Warming." No matter what St. Greta of Thunberg tells us.

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D-train
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Re: Seattle is Lost

Post by D-train » Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:27 pm

Climate change alarmist act like the earth will literally catch fire burn everyone and everything alive. If if temperatures did rise to where they say they will the absolute worst that will happen is sea levels rise and people have to adapt and move. Not a huge life threatening issue given it would incredibly gradual. Would have decades to plan for it.
dt

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ddraig
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Re: Seattle is Lost

Post by ddraig » Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:00 pm

With a "moderate" increase in temps, crops can be grown further north and people become healthier. The Bubonic Plague of the Middle Ages occurred during the Little Ice Age. Far more people die during Global Cooling than Global Warming.

I found this today after listening to Amazon Prime's miniseries on Wales. Doctor Richard Price is considered Wales greatest thinker. In a sermon from his pulpit in 1789, he states, "Tremble all ye oppressors of the world! Take warning all ye supporters of slavish governments, and slavish hierarchies! Call no more (absurdly and wickedly) REFORMATION, innovation. You cannot now hold the world in darkness. Struggle no longer against increasing light and liberality. Restore to mankind their rights; and consent to the correction of abuses, before they and you are destroyed together." The Founders used Dr. Price as a source for the Constitution.

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gil
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Re: Seattle is Lost

Post by gil » Sun Jul 10, 2022 2:17 pm

bpj wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 8:08 am
gil wrote:
Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:54 pm
bpj wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:56 pm
The Earth has a different tilt than it did 30 years ago.
I did not know this and could not find a reference. Can you post a reference to this? Thanks!
Saw this today and it reminded me of this conversation from last year.
Interesting. Gotta read this! Thanks.

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