Controversial Harsh idea

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Walla Walla Dawg II
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Walla Walla Dawg II » Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:46 pm

Seafreak,
Please keep in mind that laws are intended to protect others from you (or me, or he, or she, or they, etc...).

For instance......

You drive your car 110 mph and cause a 10 car pile up, killing yourself and 18 others (and you don't have insurance).
Who's to blame? You felt that the 55 mile per hour zone infringed on your RIGHT to go faster so you ignored it.

If you don't have any relatives, no wife, no kids, no parents, what course of action do the survivors have to punish you for killing their loved ones, or replace their damaged goods?

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douche
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by douche » Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:11 pm

I come back to the idea that most people can't handle freedom. They don't know what to do with it, so they go off the rails. For the 'normal', honest hard-working people who believe in 'live and let live', it likely wouldn't be a problem. But there is only a small number of people on the planet who could make this work.

The remainder? They're the the exact opposite... immature, evil, conniving creatures whose default is nothing. No ambition. Path of least resistance. They give up on life, get hooked on drugs (or whatever else they can find) and then end up engaging in criminal behavior to support their pathetic lifestyle by exploiting others.

I think it's apparent that the law doesn't work very well, but the alternative? Not so sure.

I think the real solution would have to come from a complete change in mindset. Which will never happen. Ever.

Same reason racism will never go away.

DanielVogelbach
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by DanielVogelbach » Sat Apr 01, 2023 9:38 pm

Michael K. wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:32 pm
I get that. But also acts like if we just stop punishing drug dealers it won't be a crime anymore. Deciding to not punish petty theft has made it so much better in the Streets of Seattle right? Making drugs legal wouldn't stop the number of deaths, just make them easier to come by. His logic was, don't punish the drug dealer, because as soon as you do, another one pops up. Isn't that the same for Gang Bangers shooting people?
Theft is a crime. One party steals from the other.

A drug transaction is not a crime. Two parties consent to a trade.

You don't have to like it or want it in your community. But, you can't morally kidnap the dealer and put him in a cage. Nor, can you morally delegate someone else to perform that role. The only criminal in these situations is the armed police officer apprehending the participants of the transaction, because the officer is the only one using force. Everything is peaceful until the officer arrives on behalf of the state.

The same goes for gambling or prostitution. "Legalizing" is a dumb word, because the right already exists under natural law based on nobody using force therefore no aggression or crime. If you view these activities as sins, then they can be punished by God. When all participants engaged willfully, there is no victim and therefore no crime has occurred.

It's fine and understandable to oppose anything you want to oppose. However, creating prohibition statutes and then throwing all the offenders in prison is both ineffective and immoral.

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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by DanielVogelbach » Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:32 pm

douche wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:11 pm
I come back to the idea that most people can't handle freedom. They don't know what to do with it, so they go off the rails. For the 'normal', honest hard-working people who believe in 'live and let live', it likely wouldn't be a problem. But there is only a small number of people on the planet who could make this work.
Most humans are empathetic and go out of their way to avoid conflict. Then you have the evil people, which the free market can deal with and bring to justice when necessary. The free market provides justice, because there's a demand for justice. Creating "government" just creates a layer of authority for the evil people to exploit. It's criminal by nature, because all taxation is theft. Government serves the ruling class that creates it. The free market is the only thing that serves the people.
douche wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:11 pm
The remainder? They're the the exact opposite... immature, evil, conniving creatures whose default is nothing. No ambition. Path of least resistance. They give up on life, get hooked on drugs (or whatever else they can find) and then end up engaging in criminal behavior to support their pathetic lifestyle by exploiting others.
Are you talking about the politicians here?
douche wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:11 pm
I think it's apparent that the law doesn't work very well, but the alternative? Not so sure.

I think the real solution would have to come from a complete change in mindset. Which will never happen. Ever.

Same reason racism will never go away.
The alternative is addressing the root cause rather than just outlawing the inevitable despair and drug abuse outcome and incarcerating half the country.

Change of mindset for sure. Statism is a cult. I don't really worry about changing the world any more. I don't know how much could possibly change, anyway. I think there might just always be some sort of yin and yang balance between good and evil, heaven and hell.

The free market addresses racism. If you limit your business dealings to only white business owners, you will ultimately lose to the market. Moreover, it word gets out that you have a "whites-only" policy, the free market will penalize you.

Ultimately, a lot of this comes down to starving out the supply by eliminating the demand. Instead, we legislate "laws" to go after the trade and supply, and all we end up with is mass incarceration. The drug abuse issues just seem to get worse and worse. Fentanyl is a big factor now, but still I see no indication anywhere that any of these drug "laws" have been helpful in any way.

it's like they want to tax us to death and hyper inflate the currency then get us to blame all of the drug addicts with no ambition for the reason our country sucks. I would say the cause and effect are getting twisted. Get rid of the central planners, and watch how the homeless and drug problems magically go away.

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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by DanielVogelbach » Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:41 am

Walla Walla Dawg II wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:02 pm
What about enriched uranium? If my neighbor purchased a couple pounds of this product and it caused me to get cancer, I would argue that his purchase affected my rights.....even though he was only purchasing a "good".
If you didn't agree to the uranium storage and you're harmed by it, then that's definitely a crime by your neighbor. Even loud music from a neighbor is a crime. Some things like that are more grey area, and there are different degrees of severity. But, a drug transaction is much different, because neither party is objecting to the actions of the other party. There's an agreement between the buyer and the seller. It would be more like you having knowledge of your neighbor storing uranium and signing a contract that says you're cool with it, and then a cop comes to your house and takes you to jail.
Walla Walla Dawg II wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:02 pm
What about all the people that may partake in this "drug dealers" pot that was laced with fentanyl?
Someone purchases it, hides it, overdoses on it and never becomes that same person again, or dies. Years later his kids find this "good" and do the same thing.
Fentanyl laced pot sounds ridiculous, because you have to add product and it's not what the customers want. But, regardless, I think if you're straight up when representing your product and your knowledge of it, then the consumer can choose whether or not to purchase it. This is partially why black market drugs are dangerous. It's much more difficult to standardize the labeling, dosages, etc. when you have to operate with risk of being incarcerated for distributing your product. The criminalization introduces so many issues. I'm all about trying to reduce the harmful impact of dangerous drugs. But, I see the problems with prohibition both in terms of effectiveness and morality.
Walla Walla Dawg II wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 5:02 pm
But yeah, as long as it's considered commerce between two consulting adults.....fine.
I wouldn't say fine, just not something you can morally use force to intervene with, because of the consent factor. If your neighbor hosts a poker night, then you have no right to go in there with guns and forcefully break it up regardless of how much you oppose gambling.

Also, prohibition doesn't really go after the root cause of the problem. It's really just creating a new problem with all of the taxpayer expenses for law enforcement and housing all the non-violent prison inmates.

I also think legalizing drugs will reduce harm. Most people aren't going to rush out and start shooting fentanyl just because it's suddenly legal. So, it would really just move the drugs out from the black market and gangs and such. With the dosages on the label, there would be much less risk of overdose death.

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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Michael K. » Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:01 am

Sure it sounds ridiculous, so is an anti depressant being laced with it, but they do it to cut costs, and people die, so yes, I think its a bad thing.

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Donn Beach
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Donn Beach » Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:32 am

I don't see it as legalizing, it be decriminalized which is different. Someone shouldn't go to prison for using drugs. At the same time don't think we want cocaine and fentanyl sold in grocery stores

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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by DanielVogelbach » Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:55 am

Michael K. wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:01 am
Sure it sounds ridiculous, so is an anti depressant being laced with it, but they do it to cut costs, and people die, so yes, I think its a bad thing.
I think fentanyl is a serious issue. I also think that about 0.00000000000000000000000000001% of the world's cannabis supply is laced with fentanyl.

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douche
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by douche » Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:12 pm

DanielVogelbach wrote:
Sat Apr 01, 2023 10:32 pm
douche wrote:
Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:11 pm
The remainder? They're the the exact opposite... immature, evil, conniving creatures whose default is nothing. No ambition. Path of least resistance. They give up on life, get hooked on drugs (or whatever else they can find) and then end up engaging in criminal behavior to support their pathetic lifestyle by exploiting others.
Are you talking about the politicians here?
Sure, them too. But I'm referring to most of the homeless. An entire segment of the population who have given up. They live on the streets, consume drugs and alcohol, living in a haze. Stealing to support their habits. Scaring people. Defecating on the street. Vandalizing property. Contributing nothing to society.

And not only are they not contributing, they're actually stealing from society. Stealing the notion that a person can walk downtown or to the corner store without feeling endangered.

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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Walla Walla Dawg II » Mon Apr 03, 2023 4:26 pm

DanielVogelbach wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 3:55 am
Michael K. wrote:
Mon Apr 03, 2023 1:01 am
Sure it sounds ridiculous, so is an anti depressant being laced with it, but they do it to cut costs, and people die, so yes, I think its a bad thing.
I think fentanyl is a serious issue. I also think that about 0.00000000000000000000000000001% of the world's cannabis supply is laced with fentanyl.
I don't know if the number is that low, but I do know that here in Walla Walla (po-dunk little spit of a city) we have been having A LOT of over-doses of fentanyl. What people are 'taking' to overdose, I don't know, but I can't believe it's only in the hard drugs.

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