Controversial Harsh idea

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Donn Beach
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Donn Beach » Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:56 pm

Googling it there seems to be some urban legend aspect to adding it to marijuana, such as it's done to increase dependency. They do it to add to the strength of the marijuana which would add value. Which means you can smoke fentanyl which I didn't know, again googling it, you can. In fact, it's considered a safer method than injection.

DanielVogelbach
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by DanielVogelbach » Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:37 pm

Donn Beach wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:33 am
Actually the crime happens when the dealer sells something to a costumer that kills them. Fentanyl is being added to other drugs and and taken at deadly doses. You could decriminalise the transaction but you would still need to regulate the product.
Recently, marijuana laced with Fentanyl showed up in high schools here, resulting in the hospitalization of two students. Fortunately, no one died in these incidents but medical and law enforcement authorities note that more and more street drugs are laced with fentanyl because of its low cost and extreme potency
If you sell someone a gun and they commit suicide with it, are you liable? What about alcohol? It kills millions of people.

There is no crime in a consensual transaction between two parties. The crime occurs when the cop uses force to fine or kidnap one or more of the participants. This is not condoning drugs, gambling, or prostitution. It's only saying that nobody has the right to use force to intervene on non-violent, non-aggressive behavior. The drug dealer is not forcing anyone to buy it. He's not using aggression whatsoever. Moreover, the drug dealer is not really creating the demand, so when you take one dealer off the street, the next one just comes right behind him. So, not only is it immoral to make consensual transactions illegal, but it's ineffective in stopping drug use. Prohibition is not addressing the root cause.

The only thing you can morally do is educate the population and work towards eliminating demand by creating a more fair society with more opportunity for people to find love, happiness, and fulfillment. Otherwise, they will continue to turn to their so-called vices. You can't simply legislate the problem away. That's an immoral use of force, and an ineffective strategy.

Crime does occur if there's fraud in the transaction. If you told them you were selling them one thing, but they got something different. So, lacing marijuana with fentanyl would indeed be a crime if the buyer was unaware. In general when it comes to street drugs like heroin, fentanyl, etc. there's an understanding that the dealer really has no idea what he has. The buyer is very aware that the contents and potency are a mystery. This is why it's much safer to have legal versions where the drug is labeled with the exact contents and dose. Providing this will not curb demand, but it will curb deaths.

Pharmabro
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Pharmabro » Wed Mar 08, 2023 4:16 am

DanielVogelbach wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:37 pm
Donn Beach wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:33 am
Actually the crime happens when the dealer sells something to a costumer that kills them. Fentanyl is being added to other drugs and and taken at deadly doses. You could decriminalise the transaction but you would still need to regulate the product.
Recently, marijuana laced with Fentanyl showed up in high schools here, resulting in the hospitalization of two students. Fortunately, no one died in these incidents but medical and law enforcement authorities note that more and more street drugs are laced with fentanyl because of its low cost and extreme potency
If you sell someone a gun and they commit suicide with it, are you liable? What about alcohol? It kills millions of people.

There is no crime in a consensual transaction between two parties. The crime occurs when the cop uses force to fine or kidnap one or more of the participants. This is not condoning drugs, gambling, or prostitution. It's only saying that nobody has the right to use force to intervene on non-violent, non-aggressive behavior. The drug dealer is not forcing anyone to buy it. He's not using aggression whatsoever. Moreover, the drug dealer is not really creating the demand, so when you take one dealer off the street, the next one just comes right behind him. So, not only is it immoral to make consensual transactions illegal, but it's ineffective in stopping drug use. Prohibition is not addressing the root cause.

The only thing you can morally do is educate the population and work towards eliminating demand by creating a more fair society with more opportunity for people to find love, happiness, and fulfillment. Otherwise, they will continue to turn to their so-called vices. You can't simply legislate the problem away. That's an immoral use of force, and an ineffective strategy.

Crime does occur if there's fraud in the transaction. If you told them you were selling them one thing, but they got something different. So, lacing marijuana with fentanyl would indeed be a crime if the buyer was unaware. In general when it comes to street drugs like heroin, fentanyl, etc. there's an understanding that the dealer really has no idea what he has. The buyer is very aware that the contents and potency are a mystery. This is why it's much safer to have legal versions where the drug is labeled with the exact contents and dose. Providing this will not curb demand, but it will curb deaths.
That is a silly position to have., Do you have any idea how fragile our privileged Western society truly is? My god have you ever thought about what a nightmare life it would be if 99.9% of society wasn't non-violent law-abiding citizens? Faith in the system and an overwhelming majority of folks doing the right thing day in and day out is keeping beacon on the hill shining. Don't dim the light shine the glass you ass.

Michael K.
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Michael K. » Wed Mar 08, 2023 9:53 pm

DanielVogelbach wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:17 am
Life in prison for a non-violent action is inhumane. Selling a drug is a voluntary transaction between two consenting parties. There is no violence or force involved until the cop shows up.

You don't fix drug addiction issues by criminalizing the substances. That never works. It might look like you fixed the problem, but all you really did was incarcerate a bunch of people, which costs the taxpayers tons of money. You're trading one problem for another. You're not getting to the root cause. The root cause is always the demand. Without the demand, there's no supply.

Here are some things that would help:

#1 - More opportunity. When people see opportunity to make money, start families, buy homes, take on hobbies, etc., then they're far less likely to mess around with drugs or commit crimes. When they feel like the system is failing them and there's no hope, then they are more likely to turn to drugs. Everyone has their own ideas on how to create more opportunity. I personally think the free market is best, and that would be without any central banks, fiat currency, or taxes.

#2 - More education. Sometimes people truly don't recognize the dangers. So, simply spreading awareness of how dangerous the drugs are will help to some degree. Doctors should consider the situation very carefully before recommending an opiate based medication. Patients should also be well educated before starting a regimen of opiates. Many addicts start out popping pills their doctor gave them. (hyrdrocodone, percocet, oxycontin)

#3 - Legalize the pharmaceutical versions. This won't curb demand, but it will curb deaths. One of the main reasons people die of overdoses is because they don't know how much they're taking. Each batch of street drugs has unknown potency. It would be better if addicts could just go to the store and pick up Oxycontin where they know exactly how much is in each pill. I don't personally think legalization adds much to the demand.
Fentanyl is currently illegal. If they made it legal, I still wouldn't go anywhere near it. (see point #1) Furthermore, legalization gets rid of the black market and eliminates a lot of crime and violence. When you make something illegal, it just creates an avenue for gangs, cartels, etc. to thrive.
This isn't the issue with Fentanyl though, right? This isn't two consenting adults. This is often times someone buying one thing, can even be a damn pain killer, that is laced with Fentanyl to make the drug more profitable for the seller, then the buyer dying. I played Co Ed softball with a gal that thought she was buying Anti Depressants. That was a very sad funeral. Sucks that she felt she had to get this on the street, and sucks worse that she died from something that was supposed to keep her from killing herself.

The issue with Fentanly is far less about two consenting adults, and more one trying to make more money by putting shit in a product to boost the bottom line, and not doing it correctly, and actually KILLING their customers. So stupid I can't even wrap my head around it. That said, if my son so much as takes an ibuprofin from one of his team mates I have told him I will kill him myself. They call that shit "arm candy" on the baseball team. Fine, he is to take the shit I buy him at the store and ONLY the shit I bought him at the store.

I understand your point, but I promise you, the parent and HS coach in me is scared to death of this shit.

Michael K.
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Michael K. » Wed Mar 08, 2023 9:55 pm

Donn Beach wrote:
Wed Jan 25, 2023 7:56 pm
Googling it there seems to be some urban legend aspect to adding it to marijuana, such as it's done to increase dependency. They do it to add to the strength of the marijuana which would add value. Which means you can smoke fentanyl which I didn't know, again googling it, you can. In fact, it's considered a safer method than injection.
Not sure about that, but what I understand, like I said, is it is added to other drugs to cut costs. I do believe you are right though, and I have heard it makes the user more dependant. Either way, this is NOT a sale between two consenting adults. The buyer normally doesn't know that shit is in there.

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Cascade Kid
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Cascade Kid » Fri Mar 10, 2023 11:36 pm

D-train wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:28 pm
I don't think my idea was clear enough. Just distribute fentanyl for free among the homeless and a couple years and about 10 thousand OD deaths later, poof, no more homeless. Humane self imposed extermination. What's the downside?
May need to legalize human composting in order for this to work.

Grandma Lynn
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Grandma Lynn » Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:43 pm

Isn't there some countries that
have law if you get caught stealing
you get your hand cut off?
Or is that an old wives tale?

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Donn Beach
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Donn Beach » Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:55 am

Mexico's president on the cause of the US fentanyl crisis
.On Friday, the Mexican president told a morning news briefing that the problem was caused by “a lack of hugs, of embraces.”

“There is a lot of disintegration of families, there is a lot of individualism, there is a lack of love, of brotherhood, of hugs and embraces,” López Obrador said of the U.S. crisis. “That is why they (U.S. officials) should be dedicating funds to address the causes.”

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Walla Walla Dawg II
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Walla Walla Dawg II » Mon Mar 20, 2023 1:43 pm

Grandma Lynn wrote:
Sun Mar 12, 2023 9:43 pm
Isn't there some countries that
have law if you get caught stealing
you get your hand cut off?
Or is that an old wives tale?
It was some of the middle eastern countries that did this. I have a friend that moved to Saudi in the early 80's. He said it wasn't very long after their arrival that one day a crowd was forming in the town square and they were pushed to the front of the crowd. Once they got pushed to the front of the crowd they saw a man get a hand cut off for stealing.
The locals liked to make foreigners know the penalty for breaking laws.

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douche
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by douche » Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:08 pm

D-train wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:28 pm
I don't think my idea was clear enough. Just distribute fentanyl for free among the homeless and a couple years and about 10 thousand OD deaths later, poof, no more homeless. Humane self imposed extermination. What's the downside?
Is mass sterilization a harsh idea?

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