Controversial Harsh idea

DanielVogelbach
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by DanielVogelbach » Wed Apr 05, 2023 7:36 pm

douche wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2023 4:09 pm
I don't trust the government, but I don't trust that people can handle freedom and make good decisions without laws either. People will do whatever they want if there are no repercussions. And a lot of their behavior would be of the bad kind.
If your philosophy is that people "will do whatever they want", then how does that not apply to the people in "government"? What magically changes? How is their authority legitimate? How was it implemented? Who consented?

People are generally kind, generous, compassionate, and they go out of their way to avoid conflict. Bad actors can be brought to justice in the free market. But, with "government", bad actors have a massive, high-powered brainwashing tool they can use to accomplish murder, kidnapping, extortion, and enslavement on a large scale without anyone questioning it. The key is to realize that "government" itself is illegitimate and immoral. All taxation is theft. The only valid law is contract law where both parties consent.
douche wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2023 4:09 pm
Sure, selling and consuming drugs is a non-aggressive behavior, until said junkie needs to steal or use force to support his habit. Same with drinking and driving... all good until some drunk kills kills someone with their vehicle.

I agree with you in the sense that government is a sham. I also agree that prohibition doesn't work and that the 'war on drugs' is a farce.
If the drug causes a person to steal or the alcohol causes someone to kill someone with their car. Now, we have a crime. But, a drug transaction between two consenting parties is not a crime under natural law even if it's a whole truckload of the finest fentanyl. I have considered the concept of endangerment. I still think it's one of those things where you're taking a dumb risk and making a poor decision, but it's not unlawful unless you ultimately harm someone else.

I don't think the idea is for us to have pure freedom. That's not God's plan. So, I don't really worry about it. But, the point is that "government" in general is a major root cause of problems. So, when you see a problem pop up in society and your first thought is, "the government should ban that", then you're a part of the problem, because you're maintaining that the "government" actually has legitimate authority to tell non-aggressive people what to do. It's not just about shooting fentanyl, it's also about paying taxes.

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douche
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by douche » Wed Apr 05, 2023 9:36 pm

I'm just not sure that people could handle the freedom to govern themselves. Yes, bad actors can be brought to justice in the free market, but who determines justice? Most adults are nothing more than large children. They need structure to make sense of the world.

Are most people kind and generous? Perhaps, but it's really every man for himself. If we were to completely abolish government and laws, the human race would have a chance to start over but things would eventually begin heading in the same direction again. Which would eventually bring us right back to where we currently are.

Humans are inherently flawed. Until someone can figure out a way to breed out the greedy, selfish, corrupt gene in humans, things will never change.

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Walla Walla Dawg II
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Walla Walla Dawg II » Wed Apr 05, 2023 11:39 pm

DanielVogelbach wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2023 7:36 pm
douche wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2023 4:09 pm
I don't trust the government, but I don't trust that people can handle freedom and make good decisions without laws either. People will do whatever they want if there are no repercussions. And a lot of their behavior would be of the bad kind.
If your philosophy is that people "will do whatever they want", then how does that not apply to the people in "government"? What magically changes? How is their authority legitimate? How was it implemented? Who consented?

People are generally kind, generous, compassionate, and they go out of their way to avoid conflict. Bad actors can be brought to justice in the free market. But, with "government", bad actors have a massive, high-powered brainwashing tool they can use to accomplish murder, kidnapping, extortion, and enslavement on a large scale without anyone questioning it. The key is to realize that "government" itself is illegitimate and immoral. All taxation is theft. The only valid law is contract law where both parties consent.
douche wrote:
Wed Apr 05, 2023 4:09 pm
Sure, selling and consuming drugs is a non-aggressive behavior, until said junkie needs to steal or use force to support his habit. Same with drinking and driving... all good until some drunk kills kills someone with their vehicle.

I agree with you in the sense that government is a sham. I also agree that prohibition doesn't work and that the 'war on drugs' is a farce.
If the drug causes a person to steal or the alcohol causes someone to kill someone with their car. Now, we have a crime. But, a drug transaction between two consenting parties is not a crime under natural law even if it's a whole truckload of the finest fentanyl. I have considered the concept of endangerment. I still think it's one of those things where you're taking a dumb risk and making a poor decision, but it's not unlawful unless you ultimately harm someone else.

I don't think the idea is for us to have pure freedom. That's not God's plan. So, I don't really worry about it. But, the point is that "government" in general is a major root cause of problems. So, when you see a problem pop up in society and your first thought is, "the government should ban that", then you're a part of the problem, because you're maintaining that the "government" actually has legitimate authority to tell non-aggressive people what to do. It's not just about shooting fentanyl, it's also about paying taxes.
It must be hell inside your head!!
:roll:

Michael K.
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Michael K. » Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:47 pm

Yep, people dying from a sip of alcohol they bought that they thought was soda pop. Jesus dude. You're a trip.

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Walla Walla Dawg II
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Walla Walla Dawg II » Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:14 pm

Michael K. wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:47 pm
Yep, people dying from a sip of alcohol they bought that they thought was soda pop. Jesus dude. You're a trip.
I do hate it when we agree on stuff.

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ddraig
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by ddraig » Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:16 pm

On my way in to work today, I was listening to a short segment from John Carlson. Here is the gist: From 1990 to 2015, legal guns in the U.S. went up 50%. At the same time, gun crimes went DOWN 47%. Isn't it a bit odd that with 50% more guns in the hands of honest citizens, the crime rate went down nearly 50%? Now, there were other factors, Most notably that governments passed many "Hard Time for Armed Crime" laws, 3-Strike laws, and harsher penalties for the commission of a crime using a gun or knife. So what changed? I have my own opinions but what happened to remove this trend?

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Walla Walla Dawg II
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Walla Walla Dawg II » Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:36 pm

ddraig wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:16 pm
On my way in to work today, I was listening to a short segment from John Carlson. Here is the gist: From 1990 to 2015, legal guns in the U.S. went up 50%. At the same time, gun crimes went DOWN 47%. Isn't it a bit odd that with 50% more guns in the hands of honest citizens, the crime rate went down nearly 50%? Now, there were other factors, Most notably that governments passed many "Hard Time for Armed Crime" laws, 3-Strike laws, and harsher penalties for the commission of a crime using a gun or knife. So what changed? I have my own opinions but what happened to remove this trend?
Fewer people are refusing....REFUSING to be victims.

And maybe there is something to the saying:
An armed society is a polite society

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douche
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by douche » Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:02 pm

Walla Walla Dawg II wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:36 pm
And maybe there is something to the saying:
An armed society is a polite society
Leveling the playing field may also have something to do with the degree of politeness. ;)

DanielVogelbach
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by DanielVogelbach » Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:17 pm

Michael K. wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:47 pm
Yep, people dying from a sip of alcohol they bought that they thought was soda pop. Jesus dude. You're a trip.
What does this even mean?

I'm only focused on morality. I'm not a proponent of soda pop, alcohol, fentanyl, gambling, or adultery. But, I'm also not a proponent of using aggression to force peaceful people to act the way you want them to. It doesn't matter how good you think your idea is, you can't morally force it onto other people. It's a great idea to avoid dangerous drugs, and it's not the most admirable or honorable thing to go serve junkies either. But, natural law states that you can't use aggression towards non aggressive people. This is a very basic concept called the "Non Aggression Principle"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle

It goes way beyond using aggression to stop peaceful drug transactions. The more important thing to focus on is that nobody has the right to force you to pay taxes. Once you realize this very important concept, then the puzzle pieces start fitting together and you begin to realize why there are so many junkies on the streets.

The drug dealers are not the ones to blame for the problems in society. The problems come from the banks and the governments, and everyone plays their role by following orders, working for the system, paying their taxes, using their fiat currency, joining the police and the military, teaching the kids the government propaganda in K-12. People like to blame their leaders and clear their own conscience, but the leaders have no power without the order followers. The problems in society come from the order followers. The pathway to change centers around non-compliance and self-reliance.

Michael K.
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Re: Controversial Harsh idea

Post by Michael K. » Thu Apr 06, 2023 6:46 pm

Walla Walla Dawg II wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2023 4:14 pm
Michael K. wrote:
Thu Apr 06, 2023 3:47 pm
Yep, people dying from a sip of alcohol they bought that they thought was soda pop. Jesus dude. You're a trip.
I do hate it when we agree on stuff.
LOL, dude, we agree on way more than we don't. We just go hard on the shit we don't agree on. LOL

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