Mariner Talk Chat Forum

Could Fentanyl be the solution to the homeless problem???

D-train wrote: ↑

Sat Jan 21, 2023 2:59 pm

Could Fentanyl be the solution to the homeless problem???

My wife has a simple solution to the fentanyl problem. If you sell it, you get the firing squad. My idea is a bit more "humane." Selling it gets you prison for life with no parole. Either will not get all the pushers off the street, but it may have a few thinking about it.

Life in prison for a non-violent action is inhumane. Selling a drug is a voluntary transaction between two consenting parties. There is no violence or force involved until the cop shows up.

You don't fix drug addiction issues by criminalizing the substances. That never works. It might look like you fixed the problem, but all you really did was incarcerate a bunch of people, which costs the taxpayers tons of money. You're trading one problem for another. You're not getting to the root cause. The root cause is always the demand. Without the demand, there's no supply.

Here are some things that would help:

#1 - More opportunity. When people see opportunity to make money, start families, buy homes, take on hobbies, etc., then they're far less likely to mess around with drugs or commit crimes. When they feel like the system is failing them and there's no hope, then they are more likely to turn to drugs. Everyone has their own ideas on how to create more opportunity. I personally think the free market is best, and that would be without any central banks, fiat currency, or taxes.

#2 - More education. Sometimes people truly don't recognize the dangers. So, simply spreading awareness of how dangerous the drugs are will help to some degree. Doctors should consider the situation very carefully before recommending an opiate based medication. Patients should also be well educated before starting a regimen of opiates. Many addicts start out popping pills their doctor gave them. (hyrdrocodone, percocet, oxycontin)

#3 - Legalize the pharmaceutical versions. This won't curb demand, but it will curb deaths. One of the main reasons people die of overdoses is because they don't know how much they're taking. Each batch of street drugs has unknown potency. It would be better if addicts could just go to the store and pick up Oxycontin where they know exactly how much is in each pill. I don't personally think legalization adds much to the demand.
Fentanyl is currently illegal. If they made it legal, I still wouldn't go anywhere near it. (see point #1) Furthermore, legalization gets rid of the black market and eliminates a lot of crime and violence. When you make something illegal, it just creates an avenue for gangs, cartels, etc. to thrive.

I don't think my idea was clear enough. Just distribute fentanyl for free among the homeless and a couple years and about 10 thousand OD deaths later, poof, no more homeless. Humane self imposed extermination. What's the downside?

D-train wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:28 pm

I don't think my idea was clear enough. Just distribute fentanyl for free among the homeless and a couple years and about 10 thousand OD deaths later, poof, no more homeless. Humane self imposed extermination. What's the downside?

If your goals is to "eliminate" homelessness, this plan rests on the assumption that most homeless want and will voluntarily take the fentanyl to the point of killing themselves. Some people would and others would not. I assume this would be true for any group of people.

If you distribute it and people don't want it, perhaps they would seek to sell it. This would be compounding an existing problem (i.e., fentanyl use is not just among the homeless).

And I assume there is a cost to the public of dealing with all the sick people before they die, and with all the bodies after they die.

And what happens when people who are not homeless now become homeless?

DanielVogelbach wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:17 am

Life in prison for a non-violent action is inhumane. Selling a drug is a voluntary transaction between two consenting parties. There is no violence or force involved until the cop shows up.

You don't fix drug addiction issues by criminalizing the substances. That never works. It might look like you fixed the problem, but all you really did was incarcerate a bunch of people, which costs the taxpayers tons of money. You're trading one problem for another. You're not getting to the root cause. The root cause is always the demand. Without the demand, there's no supply.

Here are some things that would help:

#1 - More opportunity. When people see opportunity to make money, start families, buy homes, take on hobbies, etc., then they're far less likely to mess around with drugs or commit crimes. When they feel like the system is failing them and there's no hope, then they are more likely to turn to drugs. Everyone has their own ideas on how to create more opportunity. I personally think the free market is best, and that would be without any central banks, fiat currency, or taxes.

#2 - More education. Sometimes people truly don't recognize the dangers. So, simply spreading awareness of how dangerous the drugs are will help to some degree. Doctors should consider the situation very carefully before recommending an opiate based medication. Patients should also be well educated before starting a regimen of opiates. Many addicts start out popping pills their doctor gave them. (hyrdrocodone, percocet, oxycontin)

#3 - Legalize the pharmaceutical versions. This won't curb demand, but it will curb deaths. One of the main reasons people die of overdoses is because they don't know how much they're taking. Each batch of street drugs has unknown potency. It would be better if addicts could just go to the store and pick up Oxycontin where they know exactly how much is in each pill. I don't personally think legalization adds much to the demand.
Fentanyl is currently illegal. If they made it legal, I still wouldn't go anywhere near it. (see point #1) Furthermore, legalization gets rid of the black market and eliminates a lot of crime and violence. When you make something illegal, it just creates an avenue for gangs, cartels, etc. to thrive.

Sorry, DV, but the number of deaths being reported due to drugs, specifically fentanyl, means this is not a "victimless" crime. Many leave behind parents, spouses, and siblings. They are the true victims. And then there are the rest of us who, indirectly, pay for the deaths. I am referring to the sellers of the drugs, not to those who purchase them. And yes, I fully realize that there will be an increase in illicit sale of drugs in the short term.

How do you provide opportunity in times of inflation and a period of time where there will be an economical contraction leading to layoffs? And we've been "educating" kids on the dangers of drugs since before, "Just say no!" And unfortunately legalizing pharmaceuticals will only increase the instances of break ins and thefts, as well as drugs being "borrowed" from medicine cabinets by teens and preteens. Often, the result being, "Hey, if I can get high on one or two pills, three or four will increase the high, right?"

With the amount of fentanyl alone coming across the borders, we need to do something. Most of the illicit drugs coming over the border are brought in by "undocumented aliens." We have in our power to do two things that would curb the flood. First, build the damned wall and then back it up with electronic surveillance. Plus, build better detention facilities. Then second, hammer the people who sell the stuff. Stiffer and longer sentences will help, but not totally eradicate the drug problem in the country. A third step would be to get the media to stop glorifying drugs and the drug industry, but we both know that ain't gonna happen.

Unfortunately, there is no "one size fits all," easy answer to the problem.

ddraig wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:51 pm

Unfortunately, there is no "one size fits all," easy answer to the problem.

Which plays right into the politicians' hands. There is no easy answer, so there is no answer. And the can continues to be kicked down the road, with millions of dollars of taxpayers' money spent. And those same politicians continue to enjoy lucrative employment with lucrative pensions because they'll always have a job in the war against drugs.

The best part? Because there's no solution to the 'war on drugs', much like the homeless problem, it comes with a built-in excuse to spend money.

ddraig wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:51 pm

DanielVogelbach wrote: ↑

Mon Jan 23, 2023 4:17 am

Life in prison for a non-violent action is inhumane. Selling a drug is a voluntary transaction between two consenting parties. There is no violence or force involved until the cop shows up.

You don't fix drug addiction issues by criminalizing the substances. That never works. It might look like you fixed the problem, but all you really did was incarcerate a bunch of people, which costs the taxpayers tons of money. You're trading one problem for another. You're not getting to the root cause. The root cause is always the demand. Without the demand, there's no supply.

Here are some things that would help:

#1 - More opportunity. When people see opportunity to make money, start families, buy homes, take on hobbies, etc., then they're far less likely to mess around with drugs or commit crimes. When they feel like the system is failing them and there's no hope, then they are more likely to turn to drugs. Everyone has their own ideas on how to create more opportunity. I personally think the free market is best, and that would be without any central banks, fiat currency, or taxes.

#2 - More education. Sometimes people truly don't recognize the dangers. So, simply spreading awareness of how dangerous the drugs are will help to some degree. Doctors should consider the situation very carefully before recommending an opiate based medication. Patients should also be well educated before starting a regimen of opiates. Many addicts start out popping pills their doctor gave them. (hyrdrocodone, percocet, oxycontin)

#3 - Legalize the pharmaceutical versions. This won't curb demand, but it will curb deaths. One of the main reasons people die of overdoses is because they don't know how much they're taking. Each batch of street drugs has unknown potency. It would be better if addicts could just go to the store and pick up Oxycontin where they know exactly how much is in each pill. I don't personally think legalization adds much to the demand.
Fentanyl is currently illegal. If they made it legal, I still wouldn't go anywhere near it. (see point #1) Furthermore, legalization gets rid of the black market and eliminates a lot of crime and violence. When you make something illegal, it just creates an avenue for gangs, cartels, etc. to thrive.

Sorry, DV, but the number of deaths being reported due to drugs, specifically fentanyl, means this is not a "victimless" crime. Many leave behind parents, spouses, and siblings. They are the true victims. And then there are the rest of us who, indirectly, pay for the deaths. I am referring to the sellers of the drugs, not to those who purchase them. And yes, I fully realize that there will be an increase in illicit sale of drugs in the short term.

How do you provide opportunity in times of inflation and a period of time where there will be an economical contraction leading to layoffs? And we've been "educating" kids on the dangers of drugs since before, "Just say no!" And unfortunately legalizing pharmaceuticals will only increase the instances of break ins and thefts, as well as drugs being "borrowed" from medicine cabinets by teens and preteens. Often, the result being, "Hey, if I can get high on one or two pills, three or four will increase the high, right?"

With the amount of fentanyl alone coming across the borders, we need to do something. Most of the illicit drugs coming over the border are brought in by "undocumented aliens." We have in our power to do two things that would curb the flood. First, build the damned wall and then back it up with electronic surveillance. Plus, build better detention facilities. Then second, hammer the people who sell the stuff. Stiffer and longer sentences will help, but not totally eradicate the drug problem in the country. A third step would be to get the media to stop glorifying drugs and the drug industry, but we both know that ain't gonna happen.

Unfortunately, there is no "one size fits all," easy answer to the problem.

There is no crime in a consensual transaction. The crime happens when the cop shows up and uses a gun to kidnap the dealer and take him to jail.

If you overpay for a used car, that's not the salesmen's fault. I would encourage people to stop selling and stop using fentanyl. But, the minute you use force to stop a consensual transaction, then you are the one breaking natural law regardless of what any legislature says.

Inflation is a product of fiat currency and central banks. So, you eliminate them by using gold and silver for all transactions. (or maybe bitcoin) The government taxing everyone at every turn is also a major opportunity killer. Income tax, property tax, sales tax, gasoline tax.. the list goes on, and every single one of them is immoral theft. Stop the extortion racket, and there will be less crime and less drug use guaranteed.

Education is the most important part. If someone truly understands how dangerous a substance is, they will be less likely to take it. But, if they still choose to take it knowing this information, that's actually their right. It's called freedom. The only victim will be the user. Now, they might start robbing stores to pay for their addiction, and that is a crime. But, you can't prohibit gun sales just because someone might use it for a crime, and you can't prohibit drug sales, just because some user might start committing crimes. There is no crime in eating unhealthy, drinking alcohol, or popping fentanyl. It's obviously something we want to eliminate from society, but it's not moral to do that through legislation. Moreover, when you make something "illegal", you create a black market, which creates more crime.

I don't care about "illegal aliens", because I think everyone should be able to cross the imaginary lines called borders freely. I am not a statist.

At the end of the day, the system wants the addicts. They want the drunks. The way to turn it around has nothing to do with laws and law enforcement. That's playing the game of the same people responsible for the opiate epidemic in the first place. Illegal aliens didn't create the opiate epidemic. It was pushed down from the highest levels of power.

I agree with you regarding the media. The media is nothing but propaganda. As I mentioned, the system wants the drug addicts. What they don't want is free thinkers exposing the fraud of government.

https://government-scam.com/

Actually the crime happens when the dealer sells something to a costumer that kills them. Fentanyl is being added to other drugs and and taken at deadly doses. You could decriminalise the transaction but you would still need to regulate the product.

Recently, marijuana laced with Fentanyl showed up in high schools here, resulting in the hospitalization of two students. Fortunately, no one died in these incidents but medical and law enforcement authorities note that more and more street drugs are laced with fentanyl because of its low cost and extreme potency

Donn Beach wrote: ↑

Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:33 am

Actually the crime happens when the dealer sells something to a costumer that kills them. Fentanyl is being added to other drugs and and taken at deadly doses. You could decriminalise the transaction but you would still need to regulate the product.

Recently, marijuana laced with Fentanyl showed up in high schools here, resulting in the hospitalization of two students. Fortunately, no one died in these incidents but medical and law enforcement authorities note that more and more street drugs are laced with fentanyl because of its low cost and extreme potency

That is so weird to me. Even with a low cost why would someone add even one cent to their costs given the customer is not asking for it. Not to mention MASSIVE prison time if the kid ODs.

With Cocaine, dealers cut it with worthless substances to make it go further. Lacing something with Fentanyl would be the opposite of that.