Now we call homeless people "cattle"?gil wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:33 pmThis is an interesting analogy I hadn't thought of.Donn Beach wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:52 amIf you're a libertarian type there isn't a problem in the first place is there? What's up with trying to restrict where someone can live. If we are allowing rich ranchers to graze their cattle on public land in Montana, seems like we should be allowing poor people to camp on public land in Seattle. Just quit trying to pass laws about it and the problem is solved isn't it
Following along on what you are describing as libertarian logic, we can then stop spending taxpayer money on the homeless problem.
And if you (a non-homeless person) feel threatened, hire private security. And if you don't like people camping on public land, buy your own private park.
Simple.
The Homeless Problem
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Re: The Homeless Problem
Re: The Homeless Problem
I was trying to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, but ... as to libertarian logic, I'm completely in agreement with these two things you said:Walla Walla Dawg II wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:42 pmYou two are both crazy and don't understand libertarian logic.gil wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:33 pmThis is an interesting analogy I hadn't thought of.Donn Beach wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:52 amIf you're a libertarian type there isn't a problem in the first place is there? What's up with trying to restrict where someone can live. If we are allowing rich ranchers to graze their cattle on public land in Montana, seems like we should be allowing poor people to camp on public land in Seattle. Just quit trying to pass laws about it and the problem is solved isn't it
Following along on what you are describing as libertarian logic, we can then stop spending taxpayer money on the homeless problem.
And if you (a non-homeless person) feel threatened, hire private security. And if you don't like people camping on public land, buy your own private park.
Simple.
Libertarian logic states that as long as my rights are not being affected, and your rights are not being affected, there isn't a problem.
Allowing the homeless to sleep wherever they want can cause an issue......if they sleep on government land, let's say a park, what happens to your children when they walk through that park on their way to school?
Please remember that your rights go only as far as my rights.
andas long as my rights are not being affected, and your rights are not being affected, there isn't a problem
I'd hope we could all agree that if no one is harmed, we are in a zone where everything is acceptable and should not be restricted.your rights go only as far as my rights
Putting this into practice, however, I see a lot of situations where one person wants to do/enjoy something that another person feels causes them harm. It could be as simple as my neighbor who comes homes and lets her dog out the front door, and says "go potty" (my point: guess where her dog's "potty" is). Or even the fact that her dog (who I call "Farfel") barks for several hours before she comes home. My experience talking with a lot of people who call themselves libertarians is that they would side with the dog owner. She is just freely living her life and loving Farfel and I should get over these minor inconveniences.
I've also heard libertarians, in response to the question you ask -- "what happens to your children when they walk through that park on their way to school?" -- say the equivalent of "there are other ways to get to school, and you shouldn't infringe on one person's right because you or your kids are afraid."
And to touch on a sensitive subject I'm sure, how about this: pandemics and public health. A lot of people said "I'll take care of myself while you take care of yourself, and if you are elderly or immune compromised and I'm the picture of health, it's your responsibility to make adjustments while I am free to do whatever I want." The analogy I'm trying to draw is between the people sleeping/camping in the park (implicitly saying "if you don't like it go somewhere else" and the healthy people during a pandemic saying "if you don't like my refusing to wear a mask, stay at home." Are these substantively different from a libertarians' perspective?
To sum up, I think the libertarian logic is great, but a lot of real world situations aren't covered by that simple rule. It then turns to "who decides whether someone is harmed?" (in the homeless in the park scenario, or in the refusing to wear a mask in the pandemic scenario). And that become political.
- Cascade Kid
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Re: The Homeless Problem
Maximum liberty without taking anyone else's liberty is the simple rule. Libertarians also don't need to be in 100% agreement with each other on social matters. Additionally the soundest available science can be a deciding factor to determine how to address matters such as the pandemic, but it should consider all scientific and social viewpoints to provide recommended guidence so the public has basic awareness on the danger.gil wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 4:44 pm
To sum up, I think the libertarian logic is great, but a lot of real world situations aren't covered by that simple rule. It then turns to "who decides whether someone is harmed?" (in the homeless in the park scenario, or in the refusing to wear a mask in the pandemic scenario). And that become political.
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Re: The Homeless Problem
Just read this. To live in an RV youSibelius Hindemith wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:17 pmLiving in an RV with no sewer, water, or electricity. Now there's the life!
should live in a place for them. Not
anywhere you want to be.
That's what these people are doing.
You are right!
- Walla Walla Dawg II
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Re: The Homeless Problem
Dude, it's a message board and not your college thesis.DanielVogelbach wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:32 amBy crap, do you mean the truth about how "government" has no moral right to rule? All taxation is theft? Does that work with your attention span?Walla Walla Dawg II wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:49 pmCongratulations!!!DanielVogelbach wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:20 pmDonn is right regarding libertarianism. But, the catch is that the homeless problem is a direct result of government and central banks. Basically 99% of the problems in society are caused by governments and central banks.
When they steal half of our money through taxation and inflation, then we have no resources of our own and we look to them to fix our problems. It's the same thing with charity. People are less inclined to analyze and seek out the best ways to donate, because they just gave half of their wealth to the government, so they expect the government to fix the problems - but government doesn't fix problems, it creates them. It's a ridiculous concept that they will spend our money better than we can spend it ourselves in the free market.
If we simply had our tax money back and they didn't devalue the currency through inflation, then we wouldn't be sitting here complaining about the homeless.
In libertarian ideals, you can still claim private property and choose who to accept on your land. You're not forced to provide food and shelter to the homeless. In many ways, you can still be a tyrant in a free society. But, the key is for people to be able to recognize tyranny. With statism, we have a gigantic extortion racket going on, and people think it's perfectly legitimate. This makes government the most powerful criminals. They are able to rob, kill, and enslave without anyone even questioning it.
https://government-scam.com
This might actually be your shortest post.
Still didn't read it because it's just filled with the same crap you always post.
https://government-scam.com/
You also have a tendency to repeat your same talking points no matter what the subject matter is.
And I do remember SeaFreak quite well. He and I went round and round about whether we (as humans) are the EXACT same or not. I argued that all the races are different, but we do have interchangeable pieces.
I stand by that belief, that we are all different. Have you learned anything other than we are all the EXACT same?
Although annoying, it is good to have you back. This board can always use a bit of CRAZY.
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Re: The Homeless Problem
This isn't a college thesis, this is my passion. Waking up from the religion of statism was one of the most profound events of my life. I realize that getting people to see government as organized crime is not an easy sell, because of all the programming that goes into each and everyone of us. I went through the mandatory 12 years of government indoctrination, and then I signed up for 4 more years!Walla Walla Dawg II wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 12:18 amDude, it's a message board and not your college thesis.DanielVogelbach wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:32 amBy crap, do you mean the truth about how "government" has no moral right to rule? All taxation is theft? Does that work with your attention span?Walla Walla Dawg II wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:49 pm
Congratulations!!!
This might actually be your shortest post.
Still didn't read it because it's just filled with the same crap you always post.
https://government-scam.com/
You also have a tendency to repeat your same talking points no matter what the subject matter is.
And I do remember SeaFreak quite well. He and I went round and round about whether we (as humans) are the EXACT same or not. I argued that all the races are different, but we do have interchangeable pieces.
I stand by that belief, that we are all different. Have you learned anything other than we are all the EXACT same?
Although annoying, it is good to have you back. This board can always use a bit of CRAZY.
I don't view men and women or different races as exactly the same. However I do think that all humans are humans. It's easy to recognize another animal as either a human or not. Even if they have downs syndrome or something, they're obviously human.
Regarding racism, I used to view it as more of a real issue that really impacts people. I now see it as more of a bullshit issue right up there with voter fraud, voter rights, abortion, plastic straws, climate change, gay rights, trannies in bathrooms or whatever else they push on us. For a while it was terrorism, then COVID, now a Chinese balloon. I keep posting the same thing, because it's the only relevant thing when it comes to fairness.
Statism is the actual problem. Anarchy is the only answer. The only difference between the mafia and the government is that everyone realizes the mafia is a bunch of criminals. Government is so slick, because they convince everyone that it's legitimate. But, it's not. I will keep repeating that regardless of how crazy it sounds. It sounded crazy to me at first as well. It took me about two years from hearing terms like "statism", "voluntaryism", "all taxation is theft", etc. before I came around. It takes a while to shake your indoctrination, and most never will.
What really made it obvious for me was the Larken Rose book, "The Most Dangerous Superstition" It's a fairly short book that I highly recommend. It took me a while to read it, because I had to stop and think so hard after reading the points he was making. But, it became very clear that "government" is a total scam. All services provided by the government can be provided better by the free market. We don't need to elect our rulers. We don't need rulers. We need freedom. Of course, many people are frightened of freedom. They would rather be the lion in the zoo than the lion in the jungle. Tyranny is always sold as safety and convenience.
- Donn Beach
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Re: The Homeless Problem
Sure, rules and regulations and an apparatus to enforce then, it's what we got now isn't it.Grandma Lynn wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:00 pmJust read this. To live in an RV youSibelius Hindemith wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 9:17 pmLiving in an RV with no sewer, water, or electricity. Now there's the life!
should live in a place for them. Not
anywhere you want to be.
That's what these people are doing.
You are right!
Re: The Homeless Problem
I am a statist. I believe absolutely in the concept of the state, defined as the agency in society with a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence within a territorial boundary. It isn't a perfect system, but it is the system that has allowed for the greatest degree of human flourishing.
Re: The Homeless Problem
I heard this AM that California (Gavin Newsom) had a brilliant idea to resolve the homeless situation in the state. He created a Billion Dollar budget to build $120,000 homes for low income housing. Those homes averaged $600,000 to build. Why? Land costs for one. But Mr. Newsom neglected to factor in State, County, and Local fees, Environmental fees, lengthy wait times for permits which cost developers money, and the price of materials going up these past two years. So instead of over 8,000 houses being built, they ended up with 1600. Not exactly a recipe for solving the homeless situation in California. If they really wanted to build low income housing, they should have cut regulations. Not much you can do about the cost of land. My guess is that Newsom will ask the taxpayers for even more money, but the results will be the same. Does government do anything better than private enterprise? Even the military has $600 toilets!