Ichiro didn't deserve the 2001 MVP

[Captain 97]

Ichiro was a great player. He deserves to be in the Hall and he was great at what he did but he wasn't the type of player that could put the team on his shoulders and lead them to wins. The problem was that they paid him like a middle order of the bat instead of like a table setter. He ate up way too much of the payroll in the 2000's and hamstrung the team from bringing in any other legitimate bats. Ichiro made 167 Milion during his career and put up a career OPS+ of 107. Compare that to some of contemporaries that played around the same time.

Adrian Gonzalez 168 Million, 129 OPS+
Buster Posey 168 Million 129 OPS +
Todd Helton 161 Million 133 OPS+
David Ortiz 159 Million 141 OPS+
Hanley Ramirez 159 Million 124 OPS+
Matt Holliday 158 Million 132 OPS+

Jay Bruce 102 Million 108 OPS+
Mark Trumbo 59 Million 108 OPS+
Brian Dozier 30 Million 107 OPS+
Todd Frazier 48 Million 107 OPS+
Dan Uggla 75 Million 107 OPS+
Adam Jones 98 Million 106 OPS+

Not his fault but Ichiro being overpaid for his level of production was a problem for the M's.

[AT Funchal-Madeira]

Yeah, I admit it, Idon't have an inordinate love for Ichiro like some others..... Hands down, IMHO, he's been over compensated and over honored for his "contributions". His first four years he earned his check.... 263 hits in one season and ten years of 200 hits is great even though most of 'em were 4 bounce dribblers to second base. He was paid like a middle of the order bat but was a bantom hitter..... As a table setter he had horrible flaws.... he did not work the count, he was never a pitch count wrecker, his walk totals were below par for a lead off hitter, he was not a good base stealer for a leadoff hitter.... but I get itl.... if you don't like a player it's got to be because you are bigoted or a racist spewing hate speech..... I didn't like Chone Figgins either.... I place Ichiro 5th in the list of Mariner "Greats". Ken G. Jr., Edgar, Randy J., Felix.... and then maybe Ichiro.. The first four in the list carried the team on their shoulders and I can remember many games each one won for us..... I can remember only one game Suziki won for us....

[D-train]

Ichiro was a great player. He deserves to be in the Hall and he was great at what he did but he wasn't the type of player that could put the team on his shoulders and lead them to wins. The problem was that they paid him like a middle order of the bat instead of like a table setter. He ate up way too much of the payroll in the 2000's and hamstrung the team from bringing in any other legitimate bats. Ichiro made 167 Milion during his career and put up a career OPS+ of 107. Compare that to some of contemporaries that played around the same time.

Adrian Gonzalez 168 Million, 129 OPS+
Buster Posey 168 Million 129 OPS +
Todd Helton 161 Million 133 OPS+
David Ortiz 159 Million 141 OPS+
Hanley Ramirez 159 Million 124 OPS+
Matt Holliday 158 Million 132 OPS+

Jay Bruce 102 Million 108 OPS+
Mark Trumbo 59 Million 108 OPS+
Brian Dozier 30 Million 107 OPS+
Todd Frazier 48 Million 107 OPS+
Dan Uggla 75 Million 107 OPS+
Adam Jones 98 Million 106 OPS+

Not his fault but Ichiro being overpaid for his level of production was a problem for the M's.

Interesting comp in Adam Jones. People always seem to overestimate his worth when bringing up the Bedard trade. He was a good player but certainly not great by any means and actually had an Ichiro level walk rate. He only put up an .800+ OPS twice with peak at .839. He put up 32.6 WAR in 14 seasons. Seager has put up 36.9 WAR in 11 season with 112 OPS+ vs. 106 for Jones. If Bedard didn't get injured, it would have been a good trade.

[Coeurd’Alene J]

I am kinda chocked AT isn't all over this thread with his irrational hatred of all things Ichiro

Its neither irrational nor hatred. Some guy replied that the guy that started this just hates Asians even though the guy clearly and statistically outlined his case. Pretty amazing we all want Suzuki 2.0 given our hatred of Asians isn't it.

Usually hate is caused by misunderstanding. Pharmbro had to be around here for years under a different name to come up with this attitude and it’s obvious he doesn’t know Terry.

[Pharmabro]

Yeah, I admit it, Idon't have an inordinate love for Ichiro like some others..... Hands down, IMHO, he's been over compensated and over honored for his "contributions". His first four years he earned his check.... 263 hits in one season and ten years of 200 hits is great even though most of 'em were 4 bounce dribblers to second base. He was paid like a middle of the order bat but was a bantom hitter..... As a table setter he had horrible flaws.... he did not work the count, he was never a pitch count wrecker, his walk totals were below par for a lead off hitter, he was not a good base stealer for a leadoff hitter.... but I get itl.... if you don't like a player it's got to be because you are bigoted or a racist spewing hate speech..... I didn't like Chone Figgins either.... I place Ichiro 5th in the list of Mariner "Greats". Ken G. Jr., Edgar, Randy J., Felix.... and then maybe Ichiro.. The first four in the list carried the team on their shoulders and I can remember many games each one won for us..... I can remember only one game Suziki won for us....

He stole 509 / 626= 81.3 % that is good.
He played his entire prime in hitting suppression park
In his 1st 10 years he averaged a 117.3 OPS+ (Marcus Semien has a 110 Career OPS+ in his 1st 9 seasons and just got 7/175) Iget it Ichiro is a CF playing RF and Marcus is a SS playing SS and 2B
Even after he had many years of losing after he went to the Yanks he did this:
.322 .340 .454 .794 113

I wonder if we had a hitters haven like the Yanks, Rangers, etc How would Kyle fn Seager had fared, Or Ichiro.

Oh, and the he didn't walk BS. He had a .375 OBP his first 10 years. He was an 81% base stealer and that looks like a damn good table-setter. I mean he sucked compared to Ricky Henderson but then again so does everybody else.

To tell you the truth I would love to have 27-year-old Ichiro as my CF. He was an awesome RF throwing up elite 15-20 -30 runs above average as a RF, but as an armchair GM I push him to focus his legacy on being an well above average bat at a defense 1st position rather than an elite defender at a bat 1st position even if he has the canon arm of a RF.

Ichiro 1st ten years 54.9 WAR 5.5 war per but you get some MVP seasons there. You said he didn't deserve it his rookie 7.7 WAR season, but in 2004 he was a 9.2 WAR guy in my man Ichiro: top 4 2004 WAR Vlad won with 5.6 WAR, #2 Sheff 4.2 WAR, Manny 4.1 WAR, Ortiz 4.3 WAR

So,,,, On balance if you say he didn't deserve to win it his rookie year for XYZ, you gotta follow with he did deserve to win it in 2004. If not,

[DavidGee24]

One thing that people never consider with Ichiro is that not only did he play his first seven seasons in Japan, but he was every bit as great as a rookie as he was in his final year there, batting. 385 with a .994 OPS at the age of 21.

He also had a couple big power years there until he tailed off before coming to America. Put 21-27 year old Ichiro in the major leagues and he almost certainly ends up at over 100 WAR and shatters Pete Rose's hit record.

[D-train]

Yeah, I admit it, Idon't have an inordinate love for Ichiro like some others..... Hands down, IMHO, he's been over compensated and over honored for his "contributions". His first four years he earned his check.... 263 hits in one season and ten years of 200 hits is great even though most of 'em were 4 bounce dribblers to second base. He was paid like a middle of the order bat but was a bantom hitter..... As a table setter he had horrible flaws.... he did not work the count, he was never a pitch count wrecker, his walk totals were below par for a lead off hitter, he was not a good base stealer for a leadoff hitter.... but I get itl.... if you don't like a player it's got to be because you are bigoted or a racist spewing hate speech..... I didn't like Chone Figgins either.... I place Ichiro 5th in the list of Mariner "Greats". Ken G. Jr., Edgar, Randy J., Felix.... and then maybe Ichiro.. The first four in the list carried the team on their shoulders and I can remember many games each one won for us..... I can remember only one game Suziki won for us....

He stole 509 / 626= 81.3 % that is good.
He played his entire prime in hitting suppression park
In his 1st 10 years he averaged a 117.3 OPS+ (Marcus Semien has a 110 Career OPS+ in his 1st 9 seasons and just got 7/175) Iget it Ichiro is a CF playing RF and Marcus is a SS playing SS and 2B
Even after he had many years of losing after he went to the Yanks he did this:
.322 .340 .454 .794 113

I wonder if we had a hitters haven like the Yanks, Rangers, etc How would Kyle fn Seager had fared, Or Ichiro.

Oh, and the he didn't walk BS. He had a .375 OBP his first 10 years. He was an 81% base stealer and that looks like a damn good table-setter. I mean he sucked compared to Ricky Henderson but then again so does everybody else.

To tell you the truth I would love to have 27-year-old Ichiro as my CF. He was an awesome RF throwing up elite 15-20 -30 runs above average as a RF, but as an armchair GM I push him to focus his legacy on being an well above average bat at a defense 1st position rather than an elite defender at a bat 1st position even if he has the canon arm of a RF.

Ichiro 1st ten years 54.9 WAR 5.5 war per but you get some MVP seasons there. You said he didn't deserve it his rookie 7.7 WAR season, but in 2004 he was a 9.2 WAR guy in my man Ichiro: top 4 2004 WAR Vlad won with 5.6 WAR, #2 Sheff 4.2 WAR, Manny 4.1 WAR, Ortiz 4.3 WAR

So,,,, On balance if you say he didn't deserve to win it his rookie year for XYZ, you gotta follow with he did deserve to win it in 2004. If not,

In 2001 his 4.1% walk rate was 152nd out of 156 qualified players. Ridiculously low for a lead off hitter.

His career rate was 6.0%, actually better than I thought but still 757th out of 935 qualified players during his career.

[Sibelius Hindemith]

He played his entire prime in hitting suppression park ...

Oh, and the he didn't walk BS. He had a .375 OBP his first 10 years.

Safeco didn't suppress singles. And his walk rate was 1 per 16.x plate appearances both in his first 10 years as well as his career. How many outs did he make swinging at early pitches and pitches out of the zone? I think he could have drawn a lot more walks with a higher BA, but it would have cost him some hits.