The message is encouraging but why does he feel the need to use words nobody else uses in this situation. Just weird.
Kelenic traded to braves along W/Marco and white
Re: Kelenic traded to braves along W/Marco and white
I don't know, y'all. I, for one, am pretty excited for a change. I am actually looking forward to checking in on the M's offseason moves now, and I am cautiously optimistic that they aren't going to piss away these opportunities.
To me, the last few moves feel like throat clearing. They are positioning themselves to get as much money off the books as possible, even if they wind up looking like losers in the trades that accomplishes this. Getting rid of Evan White and Marco (and their respective contracts) by folding them into a move that gets rid of Kelenic was genius. Maybe JK will work out for Atlanta, maybe not. Either way, his moodiness and his inconsistent bat are no longer our concern. I liked Geno, but I think he was on the decline and his contract was too expensive. I don't think we got much talent in return, but it did lower our payroll.
I feel as though this is all building towards a very aggressive offseason. Here's what I think the M's will do ion ther coming days and weeks:
Just my $0.02
To me, the last few moves feel like throat clearing. They are positioning themselves to get as much money off the books as possible, even if they wind up looking like losers in the trades that accomplishes this. Getting rid of Evan White and Marco (and their respective contracts) by folding them into a move that gets rid of Kelenic was genius. Maybe JK will work out for Atlanta, maybe not. Either way, his moodiness and his inconsistent bat are no longer our concern. I liked Geno, but I think he was on the decline and his contract was too expensive. I don't think we got much talent in return, but it did lower our payroll.
I feel as though this is all building towards a very aggressive offseason. Here's what I think the M's will do ion ther coming days and weeks:
- M's will sign Blake Snell. He's a perfect fit, and he wants to be here. He's cheaper and move get-able than Yamamoto. This gives us an ace at the TOR and allows us to move Miller or Woo.
- M's sign Soler to a 2 year deal as our DH. I'd prefer Bellinger and (obviously Ohtani), but I don't think we can outbid the Dodgers and Giants and Yankees. I think the M's will settle for a Soler or a JD Martinez.
- The M's will take a run at Jung Hoo Lee, but I doubt they will land him. If they did that solves the right field problem. But they won't.
- The M's will trade for Arozorena and Isaac Paredes. This gives them controllable talent for the next several years and fills the holes in LF and 3B. Jon Morosi reports the M's are discussing this with the Rays who are looking for pitching and trying to shed salary. It will take more than a Miller or Woo to make this happen, so we'd have to part with some prospects. But with the Cards not needing any more pitchers, our next logical trade partner is the Rays. These guys combine for a total of about 8.0 WAR, so getting them both would be a coup.
Just my $0.02
Re: Kelenic traded to braves along W/Marco and white
Great post BM. Totally agree. When I went to bed last night there was a high likelihood the JK would be the RF and Marco would be in the rotation. We are much better of given they don't think that is good enough.Big_Maple wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 3:37 pmI don't know, y'all. I, for one, am pretty excited for a change. I am actually looking forward to checking in on the M's offseason moves now, and I am cautiously optimistic that they aren't going to piss away these opportunities.
To me, the last few moves feel like throat clearing. They are positioning themselves to get as much money off the books as possible, even if they wind up looking like losers in the trades that accomplishes this. Getting rid of Evan White and Marco (and their respective contracts) by folding them into a move that gets rid of Kelenic was genius. Maybe JK will work out for Atlanta, maybe not. Either way, his moodiness and his inconsistent bat are no longer our concern. I liked Geno, but I think he was on the decline and his contract was too expensive. I don't think we got much talent in return, but it did lower our payroll.
I feel as though this is all building towards a very aggressive offseason. Here's what I think the M's will do ion ther coming days and weeks:
- M's will sign Blake Snell. He's a perfect fit, and he wants to be here. He's cheaper and move get-able than Yamamoto. This gives us an ace at the TOR and allows us to move Miller or Woo.
- M's sign Soler to a 2 year deal as our DH. I'd prefer Bellinger and (obviously Ohtani), but I don't think we can outbid the Dodgers and Giants and Yankees. I think the M's will settle for a Soler or a JD Martinez.
- The M's will take a run at Jung Hoo Lee, but I doubt they will land him. If they did that solves the right field problem. But they won't.
This still leaves a hole in RF and a glut of utility guys in the infield. So I have no clue what Jerry has in mind there.
- The M's will trade for Arozorena and Isaac Paredes. This gives them controllable talent for the next several years and fills the holes in LF and 3B. Jon Morosi reports the M's are discussing this with the Rays who are looking for pitching and trying to shed salary. It will take more than a Miller or Woo to make this happen, so we'd have to part with some prospects. But with the Cards not needing any more pitchers, our next logical trade partner is the Rays. These guys combine for a total of about 8.0 WAR, so getting them both would be a coup.
Just my $0.02
dt
Re: Kelenic traded to braves along W/Marco and white
This may be the best trade Jerry has ever made! Even if JK finds himself in Atlanta he was never going to work out here.
So good luck JK and thank you Atlanta.
So good luck JK and thank you Atlanta.
Re: Kelenic traded to braves along W/Marco and white
Here's a not-very-rosy take on the M's offseason moves by Ken Rosenthal:
Some thoughts on the Mariners’ end of their trade Sunday night with the Braves, in which Seattle traded outfielder Jarred Kelenic, left-hander Marco Gonzales and first baseman Evan White for right-hander Jackson Kowar and minor-league righty Cole Phillips:
• Mariners catcher Cal Raleigh was correct at the end of the season to call out the team’s ownership for its lack of spending. While the World Series champion Rangers spent more than $800 million on free agents the past two winters and the Astros also carried a top 10 payroll in 2023, the Mariners are nickel-and-diming their way through the current offseason.
The trade of third baseman Eugenio Suárez to the Diamondbacks and Sunday night’s deal will save the Mariners a combined $42 million in future commitments. The team also declined to make a $20.325 million qualifying offer to outfielder Teoscar Hernández.
This is a franchise that should be pursuing Shohei Ohtani, but signaled early in the process that it will not even be involved in the bidding. This is a team that now seems perfectly set up to acquire Padres outfielder Juan Soto, but almost certainly will balk at adding his $30 million-plus salary when guaranteed only one year of club control.
So much for the momentum the Mariners supposedly gained by ending their 21-year playoff drought in 2022. Their estimated 2024 payroll, according to Fangraphs, currently stands just below $115 million. The final numbers for last season are not yet known, but the Mariners ended at about $140 million, according to Fangraphs, believed to be around 18th in the majors.
• Here is what Raleigh told reporters on the final weekend:
“We’ve got to commit to winning, we have to commit to going and getting those players you see other teams going out and getting — big-time pitchers, big-time hitters. We have to do that to keep up. We’ve done a great job of growing some players here and within the farm system, but sometimes you’ve got to go out and you have to buy … You look at the other (Rangers) locker room, they’ve added more than anybody else and you saw where it got them this year.”
Raleigh spoke to reporters again the next day to clarify his remarks, apologizing to his teammates if they perceived he was directly calling them out. But his point was made, and as it turned out, truer words were never spoken.
The shame of all this is that the Mariners should be well-positioned to field a legitimate contender in the AL West. They led the American League in ERA last season. They are strong at three of the four up-the-middle positions with Raleigh, shortstop J.P. Crawford and center fielder Julio Rodríguez. And yet, they are operating like a small-market franchise even though they ranked 10th in attendance in 2023.
Cal Raleigh made waves for his comments about the Mariners’ direction this season. (Kim Klement Neitzel / USA Today)
• So, what’s next? The Mariners are set up well to trade for affordable hitters. In the Suárez trade, they acquired reliever Carlos Vargas, a hard thrower with command issues. In the Kelenic deal, they obtained Kowar, the Braves’ return from the Royals for righty Kyle Wright, and Phillips, a prospect who likely would have been a first-rounder out of high school in 2022 if he had not undergone Tommy John surgery.
That’s three pitchers they’ve added to an already impressive stable of young arms. The Mariners seemingly are building enough depth to trade one of their emerging starters, perhaps Bryan Woo or Bryce Miller, for a hitter with comparable long-term control. Controllable starters are currently the game’s most valuable commodity.
Earlier this offseason, the Mariners inquired about both Rays left fielder Randy Arozarena and third baseman Isaac Paredes, according to sources briefed on the discussions. At the time, they were not positioned to advance those conversations, citing financial restraints. Perhaps those talks can accelerate now.
The Rays have 16 players eligible for arbitration. Arozarena, under club control for three more seasons, is projected to earn $9 million. Paredes, under control for four more, is projected to earn $3.2 million. Those are the types of players the Mariners likely will try to acquire.
• Finally, a word about Kelenic. Some New York-based writers noted on X, formerly known as Twitter, that the Mets have now won the infamous Dec. 2018 trade in which they sent Kelenic, outfielder Jay Bruce and pitchers Gerson Bautista, Justin Dunn and Anthony Swarzak to the Mariners for closer Edwin Díaz, second baseman Robinson Canó and cash.
Former Mets GM Brodie Van Wagenen was heavily criticized for giving up Kelenic, who then was one of the game’s top prospects. But to this point, Kelenic has yet to fulfill expectations, and he raised questions about his maturity when he broke his left foot kicking a water cooler in July.
The Braves, though, see Kelenic as a player who still holds promise. The Mets drafted him sixth in 2018. He’s still only 24. And he is under club control for five more seasons.
It would be just the Mets’ luck if Kelenic still ended up tormenting them, almost like a junior version of Chipper Jones.
Some thoughts on the Mariners’ end of their trade Sunday night with the Braves, in which Seattle traded outfielder Jarred Kelenic, left-hander Marco Gonzales and first baseman Evan White for right-hander Jackson Kowar and minor-league righty Cole Phillips:
• Mariners catcher Cal Raleigh was correct at the end of the season to call out the team’s ownership for its lack of spending. While the World Series champion Rangers spent more than $800 million on free agents the past two winters and the Astros also carried a top 10 payroll in 2023, the Mariners are nickel-and-diming their way through the current offseason.
The trade of third baseman Eugenio Suárez to the Diamondbacks and Sunday night’s deal will save the Mariners a combined $42 million in future commitments. The team also declined to make a $20.325 million qualifying offer to outfielder Teoscar Hernández.
This is a franchise that should be pursuing Shohei Ohtani, but signaled early in the process that it will not even be involved in the bidding. This is a team that now seems perfectly set up to acquire Padres outfielder Juan Soto, but almost certainly will balk at adding his $30 million-plus salary when guaranteed only one year of club control.
So much for the momentum the Mariners supposedly gained by ending their 21-year playoff drought in 2022. Their estimated 2024 payroll, according to Fangraphs, currently stands just below $115 million. The final numbers for last season are not yet known, but the Mariners ended at about $140 million, according to Fangraphs, believed to be around 18th in the majors.
• Here is what Raleigh told reporters on the final weekend:
“We’ve got to commit to winning, we have to commit to going and getting those players you see other teams going out and getting — big-time pitchers, big-time hitters. We have to do that to keep up. We’ve done a great job of growing some players here and within the farm system, but sometimes you’ve got to go out and you have to buy … You look at the other (Rangers) locker room, they’ve added more than anybody else and you saw where it got them this year.”
Raleigh spoke to reporters again the next day to clarify his remarks, apologizing to his teammates if they perceived he was directly calling them out. But his point was made, and as it turned out, truer words were never spoken.
The shame of all this is that the Mariners should be well-positioned to field a legitimate contender in the AL West. They led the American League in ERA last season. They are strong at three of the four up-the-middle positions with Raleigh, shortstop J.P. Crawford and center fielder Julio Rodríguez. And yet, they are operating like a small-market franchise even though they ranked 10th in attendance in 2023.
Cal Raleigh made waves for his comments about the Mariners’ direction this season. (Kim Klement Neitzel / USA Today)
• So, what’s next? The Mariners are set up well to trade for affordable hitters. In the Suárez trade, they acquired reliever Carlos Vargas, a hard thrower with command issues. In the Kelenic deal, they obtained Kowar, the Braves’ return from the Royals for righty Kyle Wright, and Phillips, a prospect who likely would have been a first-rounder out of high school in 2022 if he had not undergone Tommy John surgery.
That’s three pitchers they’ve added to an already impressive stable of young arms. The Mariners seemingly are building enough depth to trade one of their emerging starters, perhaps Bryan Woo or Bryce Miller, for a hitter with comparable long-term control. Controllable starters are currently the game’s most valuable commodity.
Earlier this offseason, the Mariners inquired about both Rays left fielder Randy Arozarena and third baseman Isaac Paredes, according to sources briefed on the discussions. At the time, they were not positioned to advance those conversations, citing financial restraints. Perhaps those talks can accelerate now.
The Rays have 16 players eligible for arbitration. Arozarena, under club control for three more seasons, is projected to earn $9 million. Paredes, under control for four more, is projected to earn $3.2 million. Those are the types of players the Mariners likely will try to acquire.
• Finally, a word about Kelenic. Some New York-based writers noted on X, formerly known as Twitter, that the Mets have now won the infamous Dec. 2018 trade in which they sent Kelenic, outfielder Jay Bruce and pitchers Gerson Bautista, Justin Dunn and Anthony Swarzak to the Mariners for closer Edwin Díaz, second baseman Robinson Canó and cash.
Former Mets GM Brodie Van Wagenen was heavily criticized for giving up Kelenic, who then was one of the game’s top prospects. But to this point, Kelenic has yet to fulfill expectations, and he raised questions about his maturity when he broke his left foot kicking a water cooler in July.
The Braves, though, see Kelenic as a player who still holds promise. The Mets drafted him sixth in 2018. He’s still only 24. And he is under club control for five more seasons.
It would be just the Mets’ luck if Kelenic still ended up tormenting them, almost like a junior version of Chipper Jones.
-
Michael K.
- Posts: 11536
- Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 5:27 am
Re: Kelenic traded to braves along W/Marco and white
The disappointing thing to me is that in a sport with no salary cap? Mariner fans get excited about cutting salary. Until they actually add players, this is just the Mariners saving themselves money, and all I will believe it is.
Do I want the guys we have gotten rid of to be in the lineup or rotation next year? Not really, but do I believe we will add more talented options? Not at all.
Do I want the guys we have gotten rid of to be in the lineup or rotation next year? Not really, but do I believe we will add more talented options? Not at all.
Re: Kelenic traded to braves along W/Marco and white
If he can't add better players than White, JK and Marco he should be fired on Valentines Day.Michael K. wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 4:52 pmThe disappointing thing to me is that in a sport with no salary cap? Mariner fans get excited about cutting salary. Until they actually add players, this is just the Mariners saving themselves money, and all I will believe it is.
Do I want the guys we have gotten rid of to be in the lineup or rotation next year? Not really, but do I believe we will add more talented options? Not at all.
dt
Re: Kelenic traded to braves along W/Marco and white
Well, this is hard to quantify. How do you define "more talented options"? More talented than what? Kelenic and Teoscar?Michael K. wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 4:52 pm
Do I want the guys we have gotten rid of to be in the lineup or rotation next year? Not really, but do I believe we will add more talented options? Not at all.
Right now we have Canzone and Hags on the 40 man roster as outfielders with Clase and DeLoach and Taylor Trammell waiting in the wings. If this is the outfield we are going with, then I think we are in serious shit next season. We need to plug those holes with some proven talent - either in FA or by trade.
So if they stand pat,m then I don't think we upgraded - we regressed. Time will tell if they go after some big league talent which will indicate they took a crack at a real upgrade.
Re: Kelenic traded to braves along W/Marco and white
I have little respect for Jerry but he does always do what he says he is going to do and he said they are now ready to add. Might be underwhelming but there is NFW they are standing pat.Big_Maple wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 5:09 pmWell, this is hard to quantify. How do you define "more talented options"? More talented than what? Kelenic and Teoscar?Michael K. wrote: ↑Mon Dec 04, 2023 4:52 pm
Do I want the guys we have gotten rid of to be in the lineup or rotation next year? Not really, but do I believe we will add more talented options? Not at all.
Right now we have Canzone and Hags on the 40 man roster as outfielders with Clase and DeLoach and Taylor Trammell waiting in the wings. If this is the outfield we are going with, then I think we are in serious shit next season. We need to plug those holes with some proven talent - either in FA or by trade.
So if they stand pat,m then I don't think we upgraded - we regressed. Time will tell if they go after some big league talent which will indicate they took a crack at a real upgrade.
dt