End this 4 Game Losing Streak Sunday Game Thread

User avatar
Donn Beach
Posts: 13892
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 1:06 am

Re: End this 4 Game Losing Streak Sunday Game Thread

Post by Donn Beach » Mon May 27, 2024 4:31 pm

I was looking at this article in terms of Bonds.
JUST BEFORE his first spring training as Giants manager last year, Felipe Alou announced that he wanted Barry Bonds to bat third instead of his customary fourth. But, Alou says, when he ran the idea by Bonds at camp in Scottsdale, Ariz., the slugger "told me he was feeling more like a cleanup hitter." The manager deferred to Bonds's preference. It may have cost San Francisco a playoff spot.
Bonds presented some interesting lineup issues.
By hitting fourth instead of third, Bonds loses about 20 plate appearances over a season, is not guaranteed to bat in the first inning and sometimes misses crucial turns in the ninth. In the 2002 World Series, for instance, hitting fourth for then manager Dusty Baker, Bonds did not bat in the ninth inning of San Francisco's final three losses. Those games all ended with leadoff hitter Kenny Lofton or number 2 hitter Rich Aurilia making the last out.
"I would consider hitting Bonds first," says one AL general manager. "They're not going to walk him to lead off the game, and you're going to pinch-hit for the pitcher his last time in front of him. You put a good on-base guy eighth. Now you get the best hitter in the history of the game as many as 60 to 90 extra plate appearances."

Says Alou, "When I was thinking about different batting orders last [season], I thought about hitting Barry second but not leadoff. I don't think Barry would like leading off just to get a few more at bats. They'd probably walk him, and I'd rather have him up with men on base."
.
.
https://vault.si.com/vault/2005/04/04/w ... -bat-bonds

User avatar
Sibelius Hindemith
Posts: 11885
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 3:09 am
Location: Seattle

Re: End this 4 Game Losing Streak Sunday Game Thread

Post by Sibelius Hindemith » Mon May 27, 2024 4:34 pm

The way he's run the bases (when he manages to get on) this season i wouldn't put him higher than 3rd in the batting order.

Seattle or Bust
Posts: 6198
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: End this 4 Game Losing Streak Sunday Game Thread

Post by Seattle or Bust » Mon May 27, 2024 4:36 pm

Donn Beach wrote:
Mon May 27, 2024 4:31 pm
I was looking at this article in terms of Bonds.
JUST BEFORE his first spring training as Giants manager last year, Felipe Alou announced that he wanted Barry Bonds to bat third instead of his customary fourth. But, Alou says, when he ran the idea by Bonds at camp in Scottsdale, Ariz., the slugger "told me he was feeling more like a cleanup hitter." The manager deferred to Bonds's preference. It may have cost San Francisco a playoff spot.
Bonds presented some interesting lineup issues.
By hitting fourth instead of third, Bonds loses about 20 plate appearances over a season, is not guaranteed to bat in the first inning and sometimes misses crucial turns in the ninth. In the 2002 World Series, for instance, hitting fourth for then manager Dusty Baker, Bonds did not bat in the ninth inning of San Francisco's final three losses. Those games all ended with leadoff hitter Kenny Lofton or number 2 hitter Rich Aurilia making the last out.
"I would consider hitting Bonds first," says one AL general manager. "They're not going to walk him to lead off the game, and you're going to pinch-hit for the pitcher his last time in front of him. You put a good on-base guy eighth. Now you get the best hitter in the history of the game as many as 60 to 90 extra plate appearances."

Says Alou, "When I was thinking about different batting orders last [season], I thought about hitting Barry second but not leadoff. I don't think Barry would like leading off just to get a few more at bats. They'd probably walk him, and I'd rather have him up with men on base."
.
.
https://vault.si.com/vault/2005/04/04/w ... -bat-bonds
Yeah, sorry... I'm not going to argue with where a guy likes to hit when he's Hanging 1.370-1.400 OPS seasons.

If a manager can't figure out what to do around that then we're really fucked.

So what's the excuse for forcing Julio to hit in a spot where he's clearly less comfortable? That again, is my whole damn point.

Seattle or Bust
Posts: 6198
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: End this 4 Game Losing Streak Sunday Game Thread

Post by Seattle or Bust » Mon May 27, 2024 4:41 pm

harmony wrote:
Mon May 27, 2024 4:15 pm
Seattle or Bust wrote:
Mon May 27, 2024 7:34 am
Yipee and sabermetrics have led to our best hitter performing his worst while in the 2 hole.

Oh yeah and Aaron Judge hits 3rd for the Yankees. Jose Ramirez hits 3rd for the Guardians. Bryce Harper hits 3rd for the Phillies...

So guess what... Sabermetrics and analytics can fuck right off.
Don't be so self-critical of your commendable attempt at sabermetrics and analytics.
Hey Harmony... riddle me this... why is it that one of the most analytic-forward organizations in baseball continues to be unable to field quality offenses?

Why does one of the most analytic-forward organizations continue to ruin perfectly good hitters the minute they put an M's jersey on?

Seems to me it's all bullshit...

User avatar
Donn Beach
Posts: 13892
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 1:06 am

Re: End this 4 Game Losing Streak Sunday Game Thread

Post by Donn Beach » Mon May 27, 2024 4:49 pm

Who's forcing anybody?

That's the old school criteria for a lineup
Spot Qualities
1 Fastest player on the team; running ability is the most important quality
2 All about bat control; this player likely isn’t your best; they just need to make consistent contact and advance the leadoff baserunner before the big boys take the plate
3 Likely the best overall hitter on the team; highest batting average and very high RBI; should be able to drive in the leadoff hitter
4 The coveted clean-up spot; the most powerful hitter on the team; slugging ability is more important than ability to get on base or consistency
5 Good hitter with strong RBI numbers
6 Average hitter with reasonable RBI numbers
7 Average hitter; often the weakest baserunner on the team
8 Average hitter; ability to make contact is prioritized; backup for #2 spot
9 Worst hitter on the team; likely the pitcher in NL games
Here is considered the new school criteria
Spot Qualities
1 Highest OBP on team; Speed is important but ability to get on base matters much more
2 Highest wRC+ on team; Very high OBP; Best overall batter on the team; Must be consistent and balanced
3 Good overall batter; High wRC+; Less important than #5 spot; Likely 4th best hitter overall
4 Most powerful hitter on the team: Must have very high SLG%, HR, ISO
5 Good overall batter with extra emphasis on power. High wRC+; High SLG%; More important than #3 spot; Like 3rd best hitter overall
6 Average/good overall batter with emphasis on baserunning; high OBP and SB
7 Average overall hitter
8 Average overall hitter
9 Worst hitter on the team; likely the pitcher in NL games
They both are trying to answer the same questions using different information. Neither of them are about forcing anybody

Seattle or Bust
Posts: 6198
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: End this 4 Game Losing Streak Sunday Game Thread

Post by Seattle or Bust » Mon May 27, 2024 4:53 pm

Donn Beach wrote:
Mon May 27, 2024 4:49 pm
Who's forcing anybody?

That's the old school criteria for a lineup
Spot Qualities
1 Fastest player on the team; running ability is the most important quality
2 All about bat control; this player likely isn’t your best; they just need to make consistent contact and advance the leadoff baserunner before the big boys take the plate
3 Likely the best overall hitter on the team; highest batting average and very high RBI; should be able to drive in the leadoff hitter
4 The coveted clean-up spot; the most powerful hitter on the team; slugging ability is more important than ability to get on base or consistency
5 Good hitter with strong RBI numbers
6 Average hitter with reasonable RBI numbers
7 Average hitter; often the weakest baserunner on the team
8 Average hitter; ability to make contact is prioritized; backup for #2 spot
9 Worst hitter on the team; likely the pitcher in NL games
Here is considered the new school criteria
Spot Qualities
1 Highest OBP on team; Speed is important but ability to get on base matters much more
2 Highest wRC+ on team; Very high OBP; Best overall batter on the team; Must be consistent and balanced
3 Good overall batter; High wRC+; Less important than #5 spot; Likely 4th best hitter overall
4 Most powerful hitter on the team: Must have very high SLG%, HR, ISO
5 Good overall batter with extra emphasis on power. High wRC+; High SLG%; More important than #3 spot; Like 3rd best hitter overall
6 Average/good overall batter with emphasis on baserunning; high OBP and SB
7 Average overall hitter
8 Average overall hitter
9 Worst hitter on the team; likely the pitcher in NL games
They both are trying to answer the same questions using different information. Neither of them are about forcing anybody
Julio has clearly been forced to hit in the 2 hole based around analytics...

He's hit in that spot in 45 of the 50-odd games they've played despite hitting to a .599 OPS and 86 OPS+ from that position.

Why on earth would they continue to hit him there where the information is readily available that he doesn't hit well from the 2-hole?

I don't know why you're reposting that useless nonsense for the 2nd time now. I don't really care.

Sometimes decisions are obvious.

Julio sucks out of the 2 hole... so stop trying to make him perform there. He's telling you he can't.

User avatar
Donn Beach
Posts: 13892
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 1:06 am

Re: End this 4 Game Losing Streak Sunday Game Thread

Post by Donn Beach » Mon May 27, 2024 5:10 pm

Don't agree with that, i don't think they are trying to force Julio in to anything, and i don't think it's that analytical ..

From when servais batted him leadoff, that's not analytical. And i heard servais when asked how long he might keep him there respond, as long as he wants to. Im confident servais takes players comfort into account
Julio Rodriguez is hitting leadoff for a 3 straight game. "I don't mind." he told me earlier this morning. Can't remember a time he'd ever hit leadoff before. Servais liks the energy he brings to the top of the order and the competitive ABs he saw yesterday

Seattle or Bust
Posts: 6198
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: End this 4 Game Losing Streak Sunday Game Thread

Post by Seattle or Bust » Mon May 27, 2024 5:16 pm

Donn Beach wrote:
Mon May 27, 2024 5:10 pm
Don't agree with that, i don't think they are trying to force Julio in to anything, and i don't think it's that analytical ..

From when servais batted him leadoff, that's not analytical. And i heard servais when asked how long he might keep him there respond, as long as he wants to. Im confident servais takes players comfort into account
Julio Rodriguez is hitting leadoff for a 3 straight game. "I don't mind." he told me earlier this morning. Can't remember a time he'd ever hit leadoff before. Servais liks the energy he brings to the top of the order and the competitive ABs he saw yesterday
How do you then explain them hitting him in the 2-hole...

Jesus Christ Donn... can you stay on topic for once? Please... try to play along.

WHY THE 2-HOLE IN 45 OF 50 GAMES IF HE'S SHOWING HE CAN'T HIT THERE - ANSWER. THAT. QUESTION.

.599 OPS 86 OPS+ and terrible career numbers from that position say he should never hit there. So. why. do. it?

User avatar
Donn Beach
Posts: 13892
Joined: Thu May 02, 2019 1:06 am

Re: End this 4 Game Losing Streak Sunday Game Thread

Post by Donn Beach » Mon May 27, 2024 5:40 pm

Explain it? They tried him hitting 2nd, you can't understand something unless you try it. 45-50 games is SSS. There's all sorts of other issues to be factored in. His putting up those numbers and hitting 2nd could be purely coincidental and probably is. But this is about them forcing him to do it and there is no evidence of that at all. From everything I've heard from julio he really doesn't care where he bats. And servais is such a hugger I can't imagine him forcing a player to do something they don't feel comfortable with. Go find Julio complaining about being forced and you will have something

Seattle or Bust
Posts: 6198
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:09 pm

Re: End this 4 Game Losing Streak Sunday Game Thread

Post by Seattle or Bust » Mon May 27, 2024 5:56 pm

Donn Beach wrote:
Mon May 27, 2024 5:40 pm
Explain it? They tried him hitting 2nd, you can't understand something unless you try it. 45-50 games is SSS. There's all sorts of other issues to be factored in. His putting up those numbers and hitting 2nd could be purely coincidental and probably is. But this is about them forcing him to do it and there is no evidence of that at all. From everything I've heard from julio he really doesn't care where he bats. And servais is such a hugger I can't imagine him forcing a player to do something they don't feel comfortable with. Go find Julio complaining about being forced and you will have something
I for one think Julio should get a bit more selfish and develop a bit of a mean streak.

It's not just a 45-50 game experiment. He's hit in the 2-hole in 141 games which is the position he's hit the most in. I don't think it's coincidental and there's a large enough sample size to conclude that he doesn't fit the round hole that analytics are trying to force him into.

1. 107 games - .896 OPS 121 OPS+
2. 141 games - .719 OPS 80 OPS+
3. 44 games - .965 OPS 139 OPS+

^^^
If you can't look at those numbers and come to the conclusion that for whatever reason he doesn't look comfortable hitting in the 2-hole... I really don't know what to tell you.

And I'd be very surprised if he didn't know that he struggles from that position in the lineup. Hitters know these things.

And from what I hear, Servais doesn't set the lineups. It comes from Hollander and Dipoto aka Robot 1 and Robot 2.
Last edited by Seattle or Bust on Mon May 27, 2024 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply